religious wars on love-hounds

[Goddess in Training <rrosen@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>]

On Sun, 21 Apr 1996 owner-love-hounds-digest@gryphon.com wrote:

> From: chrisw@miso.wwa.com (Chris Williams)
> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 96 19:15:34 GMT
> Subject: Re: Kate being a "witch"
> 
> "Ten Hours Free!" (ninthwaver@aol.com) burbles:
> 
> >Temper temper! There ARE so many allusions to witchcraft AND ceremonial
> >magick in The Lady's music that I dare say something is definitely up. 
> 
>    Name two. The first one is free..._Lily_ has _Lily_ reciting a blessing/
> prayer from the Golden Dawn tradition. But the _Kate_ gets the position
> of two of the angels *wrong*.
> 
Well, there are plenty of references to English and Celtic folk music and 
mythology, but that hardly would make her Pagan.

>    How can someone who can make a mistake like that be described by
> any reasonable person as a "believer"...oh, sorry I forgot. You are not a
> reasonable person.
> 
I wouldn't call her a "believer"--I'd call her a sympathetic outsider, 
perhaps.

> ------------------------------
> 
> From: chrisw@miso.wwa.com (Chris Williams)
> Date: Sun, 21 Apr 96 04:14:29 GMT
> Subject: Re: Kate being a "witch"
> 
> >I really don't understand, what's so terrible about being a witch?
> >
> >If you look back in history, the only people which have been prosecuted for
> >being witches, where people, which understood a little bit more about
> >nature, an the power of the spirit(your own spirit)
> 
>    IMO, most of the people that had been burned as "witches" in Salem 
> in the US were not. They were women unlucky enough to own something
> that a powerful man wanted. Or victims of hysterical allegations by teenage
> girls. Or were lesbians. Or any number of things. It was a handy excuse
> to kill any "inconvenient" woman.

Actually, the "witches" in Salem were hanged, not burned. And you're 
right--they weren't "witches" in the modern sence, and definitely not in 
the Wiccan sense.

> From: chrisw@miso.wwa.com (Chris Williams)
> Date: Sun, 21 Apr 96 05:22:53 GMT
> Subject: Re:  Kate being a witch
> 
> > However, despite your "benevolence" you are a JERK (or are you just having a
> >bad day?) 
> 
>    No, I'm a JERK. Always have been when the idiotic subject of religion
> comes up, that vast stone weighing us down, that stinking albatross 
> hung from the neck of mankind. Against *that* I'm quite happy to be called
> a JERK.
> 
Earlier you accused Pagans of prosthelytizing on love-hounds. And yet you 
do the same thing for your atheistic/anti-religious beliefs. If you don't 
like religion, don't be religious. But don't knock those with faith for 
having faith, and I'll give you that same respect.

>    If you had heard that Kate was deeply involved in sado-maschoism,
> and that the delays between albums were due to being a personal
> slave to HRH Prince Charles...would you ask here if it were true?
> 
No, but if Kate started using BDSM imagery in her music, it might come up 
(well, maybe not the Prince Charles part;).

>    No, of *course* you wouldn't bother to, as it's a dumb question. The
> question "is it true she's a witch" is just as dumb, but *far* more 
> persistant. It *KEEPS* coming up, but has no more basis in reality
> than the rumor I just made up. Inane rumors repeated often have this 

It's not that inane when there is some Pagan and magickal imagery used in 
her music, even if she doesn't believe in it or practice it herself 
(which is what the evidence seems to point towards). I personally haven't 
found any specifically *Wiccan* imagery in her works, but I have seen 
some that refers to Pagan subjects, such as the reference to "Zeus" in 
"The Kick Inside." Then again, Classical mythology has been used for 
years in art and implies nothing in terms of belief.

>    You had the misfortune of asking a stupid question, one that I wish
> Uli would *please* add to the FAQ.
> 
>    Question: I heard Kate was a witch/wiccan/pagan/slave of Prince
>                   Charles. Is it true?
> 
>    Answer: Of course not. She has never said so, and reacted in an
>                 incredulous manner when directly asked.
> 
Yes, it *should* be in the FAQ, but it could be put in there in a less 
inflamatory way. Something to the effect of that there is no proof for 
it, even though Kate does use some Pagan imagery in her music. 

>    All religions annoy me, but "Modern Paganisn" especially so, as there
> is little excuse for it. Foolishness is forgivable. Willful foolishness isn't.
> 
And atheism isn't foolish? As someone who is Pagan (but *NOT* Wiccan), 
statements such as these can't help but get a reaction from me. I'm 
trying, though, to be civil, since I don't read love-hounds to debate 
Paganism (I've got Pagan mailing lists and newsgroups to do that in:). I 
really wish this subject would come to an end. I read love-hounds to 
discuss Kate. Not Paganism. An occaisonal speculation on Kate's beliefs 
is O.K. A discussion of religious and magickal symbolism in Kate's lyrics 
would be wonderful.

Kate's music does have spiritual meaning to me, but it's personal--it's 
got nothing to do with Kate or her beliefs, but my reaction to her art. I 
don't really share it on list, since I don't have the words for it. But I 
would never presume to project *my* belief system on others, including Kate.

There is no evidence that Kate is Wiccan or any sort of Pagan. I have my 
hypotheses of what she is (I'm guessing ecclectic Christian, with some 
interest in Cermonial Magick and/or Paganism but not necessarily a 
pratcitioner of *any* religion), but since I have no proof, I don't go 
around spouting them, although I might bring them up if asked and offer 
my reaasons for mentioning them. But just because there is no evidence 
that Kate is Pagan, doesn't mean you should insult all those who are 
Pagan or who have any other religious beliefs. Of course if you go around 
flaming people's belief systems and life styles, they will repsond 
angrily. But this isn't the forum for it.

Now back to Kate.
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Renee Rosen                   		      
rrosen@falcon.cc.ukans.edu       	      "Was I a witch?
Goddess in Training                            In the dark days, I heard 
Astrud and Astarte on irc      		                      voices . . ."
LadyGodiva on the DivWeb                            	--Art Bears
http://lark.cc.ukans.edu/~rrosen     
        
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