More Re: censorship

[katefans@chinet.chi.il.us (Chris n Vickie)]

Subject: More censorship discussion...

Vickie here. Since Kate hasn't come out with a new album in the past
day or so.....


Ben> What the PMRC believes or doesn't believe is *absolutely*, *totally*
Ben> irrelevant. 

Strangely enough, for awhile I had sympathy with some of the PMRC's
thought processes. Totally aside from government interference, legeslation
or stores refusing to carry labeled albums, I can, from a mother's point
of view, understand that wanting to know what goes into my child's ears
is important. Beyond that though, my patience wears thin with these people.

Many parents never pay attention to what their children buy, and, if they
can't stand the music, they won't read or listen to the lyrics. Those
people want stickers to help them know what the lyrical content is. This
is where everything (IMHO) falls apart. The PMRC focused on specific types
of music like heavy metal and hard rock, yet let country or opera etc. go
scot-free. Other genres of music may not be as profane or in-your-face as
HM or rap, but the lyrics could be just as "sexist, racist, offensive, 
subversive or anti-god/country/family/values" as the lyrics the PMRC are
complaining about. That's what our Tipper Gore/Kate parody was all about.
Why pick on Twisted Sister and ignore Kate Bush, when Kate has many songs
that contain references to items on the Stickers? We feel that if ALL
genres of music were targeted equally by the PMRC, then a lot more people
would become involved in the debate. By focusing on rap, heavy metal and
hard rock (with some of the more radical alternative music thrown in) it
only affects a very small group of people. If an average opera lover hates
rap, they're not going to care if rap albums get labeled. If opera albums
were labeled too, they'd have more reason to become outraged and possibly
get involved in the issue. When it comes to the issue of labels, it should
be all or nothing at all. 

Btw, I don't have any documentation on stores or record chains that said
they would, and/or have, refused to carry labeled albums. While I have 
read in various sources that it's happened, I can't prove it at this time. 

Ben> If it weren't for two things:
Ben>   1. Government contemplating *legislating* their morality
Ben>   2. A general attitude in America that morality is a public,
Ben>      not a private issue
Ben> then there would be no problem.  The PMRC would believe whatever they
Ben> wanted, and it would have no effect on me at all.  Problem #1 is that
Ben> people like Jesse Helms listen to the PMRC and then try to get
Ben> legislation passed which would turn the PMRC's moral code into *law*

I agree with this. The members and supporters of the PMRC can keep their
children from buying any album they feel is bad for their moral upbringing,
and that's fine, but when the legislation is *law* thanks to someone like
Jesse Helms, that prevents *me* from buying something I might want to.

Vickie>> I said this? ...the least you can do is quote me directly...
Ben> Yes, I never really saw a definitive retraction of that initial
Ben> statement, and I may have misinterpreted you in other ways.  I
Ben> think we understand each other now, and I apologize for putting
Ben> those words in your mouth.

Reading my own post again, I hadn't made it totally clear. Apology accepted.

Ben>  Jesse Helms is a man who is doing his best to impose legislation,
Ben> and thus the use of force, on me.  Thus he is initiating the use
Ben> of force.  This is against the rules, and makes him fair game as
Ben> far as I'm concerned.  I picked him instead of Pat Roberson & Co.
Ben> for exactly this reason.  They are harmless crackpots, since they
Ben> aren't about to use force on me.  Jesse Helms is a very dangerous
Ben> man.  Now maybe Pat Robertson & Co try to *use* people like Jesse
Ben> Helms to achieve their aims.  But still, Helms is the problem.  If
Ben> nobody like him existed, Pat Robertson would have nobody to do
Ben> his dirty work for him, and he'd have to apply the force himself
Ben> or go take a cold shower.

I loved this! Put very well, and I totally agree.

Ben>>>  3. Realize that the NEA is *real* censorship that is happening
Ben>>>     today, and write to every political figure you can think of
Ben>>>     and tell them so.
Ben> I'm not saying they *must* give money to any one.  I'm saying
Ben> they must *not*.  Very different.  One makes no sense, the other does.

I'm very confused. I had assumed in the first quote that you were a
supporter of the NEA, and disagreed with them cutting off grants to
controversial artists. Now it seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that you 
don't think there should be an NEA at all? I don't mean to put words
into *your* mouth, I just want to understand what you mean before I
answer this.

Ben>>>  4. Don't vote ever again, or at least vote Libertarian
Vickie> People who don't vote have no right to complain about their
        government.

Ben>  As for "no right to complain" I spit in your face.  Take this back
Ben> if you want me to ever speak to you nicely again. 

You forgot the "your mother was a hamster" part, and well, actually, why
should I care if you ever speak nicely to me again? I don't recall you
ever doing it before this post. I stand by what I said, it's **MHO**.
If you choose not to vote, that's **YHO** and your right. 

Ben> I believe that democracy is immoral, and I believe that voting would
Ben> compromise my ethical code.

Fine, you do live in a country where it's your right to vote or not vote
as you please. Just curious, what system of government would you prefer?
That's not a sarcastic question, I'm genuinly curious.

Ben> Please, how about if I told you you had no right to complain because
Ben> you *do* vote?  This is more true, IMHO, given the bastards you and
Ben> your comrades have voted into office over my protest!  

You have no idea who I voted for and if they are actually in office now
because of my vote. Maybe the people who are in office now are there over
*my* protest too. 

Ben> (If this is a personal attack, you started it, and I'll apologize 
Ben> if you will).

Ho ho ho, apoligise while wiping the spit off my face? Highly unlikely.
I will only apoligise for not adding the (IMHO) beside the "no right to
complain" remark, because, as Cynthia would say "it's how I feeeel" but
beyond that, there's nothing to apoligise for. 

Ben>>>  8. Send your child to a private school if you can possibly afford it
Vickie> What? Why?
Ben>  Oh, only because kids who go through most schools in the public school
Ben> system will end up twice as brainwashed and half as educated as the
Ben> ones who don't, IMHO (and in my experience too!). 

Our public school system is in terrible shape, that's no secret. But most
people can't afford to send their kids to private schools, so it seems
that working within the public school system is the only way for most
people to get anything done. It's a sad, sad state of affairs though, I'll
agree with you there.

Ben>  As I explain above, I don't believe in democracy.  The only thing
Ben> I do, to be a little more serious, is talk to people, in the hopes
Ben> that either I will change my mind, be able to vote with a clear
Ben> conscience and participate in democracy, or that they will change
Ben> their mind, and be one step closer to changing the world forever -
Ben> the day when so many people don't vote that something big happens,
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is totally out-of-context, and has nothing to do with you or this 
discussion, but I have to say it. I'm waiting anxiously for the results
of the Louisana polls to close and see if David Duke is going to be the
Big Cheese of Luseeana. I can't wait to see the statistics of voter 
response (eligible/registered/actually voted/how many votes for each
candidate) to see how many people, who might not otherwise have voted,
came out to vote in fear that Duke might actually win unless they voted
against him.

Ben> and maybe, just maybe, government ceases to exist because people
Ben> don't believe in it any more.  It's a fairy tale, I know (sigh).

I'm a liberal Democrat, but one who votes according to my own convictions
and knowledge about a politician, no matter what party they belong to.
I believe in government, but it's in such a mess that I can't see how it
will ever get straightened out. What would a country be like without any
kind of government at all? This is a serious question. I've never met any-
one with your convictions and I'd like to know what the alternatives are,
according to your beliefs. You won't convert me, but I don't have a closed
mind about it either, and I want to understand where you're coming from.
E-mail me, since this is totally off the subject of censorship and the PMRC. 


Vickie (one of Vickie'n'Chris)
katefans@chinet.chi.il.us