Ben's post

[katefans@chinet.chi.il.us (Chris n Vickie)]

Vickie here. Jeez, I wish Kate would come out with a new album.

Ben Haller says:

> I think there are other things that are much more likely to lead to
> censorship than labelling.  Like implicit faith in the government,
> Christianity and other noxious religions, etc.  These are the things I
> worry about.

I most certainly do too. I started this thread with labels, true, but
my concerns with censorship go far beyond and much deeper than labels.

> I think that Vickie and I agree that the PMRC and such groups,
> and the stores that don't sell labelled records, have moral codes
> that we find repugnant. 

True.

> I think our fundamental difference is, Vickie seems to think that she
> should *do* something about it.

Not true, I said "keep an eye on trends that **point to the possibility** 
of "real" censorship." Of course if a record store refuses to carry a
labeled album they have that right, and I have the right to take my
business elsewhere. I just wonder what would happen if *all* stores
refused to carry labeled albums. 

> She's saying "I have an opinion, which is that other people's opinions
> are bad.  Since my opinion is more right than theirs, I would like them
> to stop exercising their right to self-determination and start acting
> according to my opinion."  This is baldly ridiculous.  Vickie,

I said this? When did I say this? I sure don't remember. If I say something
you disagree with, the least you can do is quote me directly instead of 
putting such "baldly ridiculous" words into my mouth. 

I said...

>> No, no store should be *required* to carry any music they don't want to,
>> nor should they be forced to *not* carry any music they might want to.

In my first post I *did* say "...that *is* censorship" which, you rightly
pointed out to me, was wrong. I stand corrected, which doesn't make me a
hypocrite, just someone who realizes I used a poor choice of words. 

> If you really want to prevent censorship from becoming a reality,
> I recommend you:
>   1. Join the ACLU

I have.

>  2. Do everything you can to discredit Sen. Jesse Helms

By this, do you mean "I have an opinion, which is that Jesse Helm's
opinions are bad.  Since my opinion is more right than his, I would 
like him to stop exercising his right to self-determination and start 
acting according to my opinion."    ?

>  3. Realize that the NEA is *real* censorship that is happening
>     today, and write to every political figure you can think of
>     and tell them so.

What? Is cutting grants "censorship"? If we say they *must* give 
money to artists like Annie Sprinkle, isn't that the same as saying
record stores *must* carry labeled albums? This is the problem "grey"
or "foggy" area that you accused me of talking about re: labels.

>  4. Don't vote ever again, or at least vote Libertarian

People who don't vote have no right to complain about their government.
Why necessarily Libertarian? Do you have a personal agenda in this?

>  5. Speak out against the "gag rule" *whether or not* you're pro-choice

OK, I won't be a smart ass on this one. I agree with this wholeheartedly.

>  6. Vote your Senator or Rep. out if they voted for the flag-
      burning amendment (it only lost by 4 votes, isn't that more
      scary than the PMRC by a *long* shot?)

I agree, both with the voting out and with the "more scary" part.

>  7. Condemn the press black-out during the Gulf war and the
>     disinformation fed the public by the governement every day

I agree with this too.

>  8. Send your child to a private school if you can possibly afford it

What? Why? 

> Of course, most of these assume one believes in the morality (not
> to mention the effectiveness) of working within the system (voting, etc.)

Yes? You have a better way?

> I, on the other hand, just sit back and laugh like hell.

Oh, Ok.

Vickie
katefans@chinet.chi.il.us

ps, This thread should be moved to talk.politics. I apoligise for 
starting it here. Jeez, I wish that Kate would come out with a new 
album.