Heroine death (one last time, I promise)

[keving@gaffa.wpd.sgi.com (Kevin Gurney)]

WARNING: This is rather long (180 lines) and talks about whether or not the 
woman is dead by the end of The Ninth Wave, and some more general thoughts on
artistic interpretation. Those not interested in the least should push "n"
now....


Andrew writes:
> Kate has several times  explained that _Watching_You_Without_Me_ is based 
> on the idea of sensory deprivation, and the experience of leaving one's
> body (while alive). 

You'll find no argument from me on this point, but you may from others.

> --of all the silly stereotypical ways of describing the rich and complex
> mood of that music ["The Morning Fog"], "happy" has got to be one the 
> silliest.

Silliest?  Okay, what words would you use to characterize it? Given that
it's of a spirited tempo, it's in a major key, it begins 'subito forte', the 
acoustic guitar is clear and in the foreground of the recording, and that 
it follows a piece which is in a minor key and fades out, I'd say 'happy' 
isn't too far from the mark. But since you've obviously given careful and
studied thought to the word that best describes the musical nature of
The Morning Fog, by all means do share your thoughts with the rest of us.

I'm also curious to see what you find so "rich and complex" about the mood
of this piece. Again, please share your thoughts with the rest of us.

>     Kevin makes the mistake of assuming that anyone
> here has been arguing that an actual "rescue" takes place
> in _The_Ninth_Wave_. IED sees no evidence that a rescue has already
> been effected before the piece ends. 

I guess I stand guilty as charged. I assumed that those who see a survival
also saw a rescue. Apparently, Andrew doesn't. But without evidence of a rescue 
how can you claim that she survives? Yes, she may have survived the night, and 
she's put her life in perspective, but you can't really say she survives 
the water and goes back to her family and all the other elements that are 
necessary for a truly happy ending. (Oh there's that word again. So sorry 
Andrew.) 

Maybe, just maybe, the "hopeful, upbeat" (Kate's words) ending of this suite 
is that if the heroine _should_ die after the record ends, then she is able to 
accept her death. Maybe not. (I think we already know what Andrew thinks.)

> Why does the obviously poetic, metaphorical "stone" image not "fit" with the 
> rest of the song, or with the idea that she is coming to a new 
> understanding of the value of life? 

I can see your point and must admit that it does make sense. Touche'.

> If you're going to make a fuss about the use of the conditional mode in 
> this spot, and claim it as "proof" that the character is dead, then how are 
> you going to explain the very next lines, all of which are in the simple 
> future tense? They read:

	[ lines deleted ]

>     There's just no way of interpreting these lines as anything
> but a clear and unequivocal statement of the heroine's intention
> to do just those very things when she gets out of the water. 

Or she, being dead, will 'tell' her loved ones how much she loves them
in other ways. The more mystical among us can hope/believe that contact
with the dead is possible (No, I'm not claiming that Kate believes this, so 
put the gun down), and those of us raised in a Catholic tradition (as I
believe Kate was, having atteded St. Joseph's Convent Grammar School),
can remember being told that the dead in heaven pray for us on earth just
as we here on earth pray for their souls.

> Also, if you have a CD of _Hounds_of_Love_, you will be able to hear 
> a sound effect in the very last half-second of _The_Ninth_Wave_: the 
> momentary sound of a clock ticking. This nearly buried but very real 
> sound (it is not equipment noise, and has even cryptically been affirmed by 
> John Carder Bush) is another clear sign that the girl's life is continuing 
> at the end of the piece.

I haven't heard this, but I shall don headphones tonight and hunt for it. 
How in the world does a clicking clock, assuming that's what it is, mean 
"the girl's life is continuing"? Please elaborate on this idea. 

 >>3. The couplet "Being born again/Into the sweet morning fog" just sounds
 >>too much like she's passed on to the next world. I can't think of any other
 >>_plausible_ interpretation. Oh she could be saying, "Now that I'm out of
 >>e water, I feel so young again. My, look how foggy it is this morning. What's
 >>that smell? Does someone have candy?", but that's just way to clumsy for me
 >>to believe.

> ...the heroine's feeling that she's "being born again into the sweet morning 
> fog" is a completely consistent, natural way of describing her 
> catharsis--the epiphanous experience she has undergone through her traumatic 
> night in the water.

As with the point above about the stone, I can see your point and must
admit that is makes sense to me.

>     IED started off this posting by saying that Kate has
> herself said that the heroine does not die. He posted relevant
> quotations in Love-Hounds only a few short months ago. 

I've been reading this newsgroup for two years now and saved every article 
that was interesting to me (I think I probably have most everything you've
ever posted Andrew!), but I can't seem to find these quotes in my cache.
As others have complained, I can't even get to the archives, so I'm sorry
I can't find the article in which this whole explanation appeared. If
some kind Love-Hound out there could e-mail me the article I would be
most appreciative (try "keving@gaffa.wpd.sgi.com").

> 				Here are Kate's own words: "Well,
> as part of the concept of the second side, _The_Ninth_Wave_, the
> last song had to be very positive, very much the idea of everything
> bursting into light so it's all suddenly reborn, rather than that every-
> thing dies." And, again, Kate's own words (and this ought to put an end
> once and for all to the ridiculous notion of dying): "A lot of people
> have said that _The_Ninth_Wave_ is about the girl dying, but it's
> much more about the girl _not_ dying." (Kate's own italics.)

Fine. Could I please have a reference on these quotes? I trust your
ability to quote, but I'm curious as to the context surrounding this point in 
the interview. Again, I can't get to the archives and don't have your original
posting in my cache. Perhaps there were network mail delivery problems on
our end?


And now for the summing up....

Many times throughout Andrew's response he used phrases like:

> It's just not a matter of debate, folks. 

Well it's not about debate, Andrew. It's about interpretation! As I see it,
there are few Absolutes Rights and Wrongs when it comes to artistic 
intrepretation.  An artist may certainly say, "Well, that's not what I was 
aiming for", but that doesn't mean others can't explore other interpretations 
of the art. In fact sometimes artists themselves don't even know the 
intrepretation of the art they create. (This is general comment about art, 
and is not meant to suggest that I think Kate doesn't know what she's doing).

If you have some personal problem with intrepretations of Kate's songs that
in any fashion contradict what Kate herself has said they might mean, that's
fine. But it's a far leap from "This is what Kate says" to "This is what is 
must mean for all people, for all time!" 

I would think Kate must see the oppurtunity that re-intrepretation and 
re-examination provide to keep great works of art alive and breathing. I 
think you really must examine whether you're doing Kate's music a service
by insisting on rigid, dogmatic dedication to the (mostly ambiguous) remarks
Kate has made about the deeper meaning of her songs. 

If some of us find solace in the believe that the heroine faces death at the 
end of the suite (or even after the record ends) with a clear mind and a 
fuller understanding of her love for her family and friends, rather than in 
a paniced flailing of self-doubt and fear, then who are you to say we are Wrong? 
Likewise, I now realize that some of my own comments about the above theory,
while meaning only to point out what _I_ see as obvious, may have been
interpreted as saying "this is the way it must be". This was never my
intent; if Andrew or anyone else think (and I do believe the majority holds this
view) that the heroine not only survives the night, but is (or has
already been) rescued by the end of the record, then that's fine with me
and I won't say (and never had said!): "It's not a matter of debate, folks."

As you've often said, Andrew, you have a particular way of writing about
Kate and her KrafT for which you feel no need to apologize. I certainly
won't ask for an apology, but I would ask that you examine your thoughts
on the subject of artistic criticism and interpretation more closly, away
from the flamage and blither of the net. If you really, truly, all-hyperbolic-
netwriting-aside, believe that this sort of discussion is "not a matter for 
debate", then I think you should come out and say so.

So now what do _I_ think happens at the of TNW? Well, now I'm more likely to
subscribe to the point of view that; she doesn't die at the end of Hello Earth;
the Morning Fog is a celebration not just of life, but of her survival;
whether she is rescued or not, the heroine has had a truly glorious and 
soul-enriching experience for which she can be nothing but the better; and 
that she herself, while unsure of her immediate future with regards to
being rescued, isn't fearful of dying.

Your intrepretations may vary. :)
--
Pres. Bush's biggest fear about a burning flag is that he won't be able
to unwrap himself from it in time.

keving@gaffa.wpd.sgi.com