Re: Can we settle this thing? Probably not.

[Doug Alan <nessus@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>]

> IED still has seen nothing from you or anyone else that would
> preclude the possibility that Kate deliberately used the term in a
> way that gives it a kind of implied _place_ function.

And |>oug has never said nor implied that Kate couldn't possibly have
used the term "Gaffa" in a way that gives it a kind of implied *place*
function.  I just see no reason to believe that Kate did deliberately
use the term with an implied *place* function, and will continue to
have no reason to believe this unless someone presents me with a good
reason to, or some evidence that Kate intended this.

> (As |>oug likes to say as a defense of _his_ interpretations of
> Kate's songs even after they've been repudiated by Kate herself:
> "Yeah, but it still _makes_sense!_")

IED, I will defend *anyone's* interpretation of a song that makes
sense as an "interpretation that makes sense".  Even yours.  (When it
makes sense).

> IED is still waiting to see if |>oug catches on to the other quite
> different interpretation of the whole reference to the "garden" in
> Kate's songs, but so far |>oug seems caught up in the "8-track
> studio" interpretation.

Andrew, I'm not caught up in any interpretation.  The "garden" almost
certainly has another interpretation.  This is always the case with an
allusion.  What the more direct reference is, I haven't decided, and I
think the song is too vague to really say.

> One thing's for sure about that line, though, |>oug--it has another
> meaning as well, and a quite specific one. IED has recently come
> into a bit of knowledge (about another related KT song) which has
> reminded him once again about the depth, obscurity and
> inaccessibility of Kate's use of some symbolic objects and places in
> her lyrics. Since it's not directly relevant to this subject he
> won't go into it here, but it leaves him in no doubt that a _lot_
> more is probably going on in songs like "Suspended" than either
> |>oug or IED is aware of.

Well, I'm sure if you asked Kate about all this symbolism mumbo jumbo,
she'd say it was all balderdash.  I'm sure it's all there, but it may
be just because Kate tends to use words that are rich with symbolism,
or it may be unconscious, or it may be as John Carder Bush says, that
Kate speaks with the voice of the Oneness because she is just a little
bit closer to God than the rest of us, or it may be that Kate puts all
these things into her songs, and refuses to tell anyone about it,
because that would be giving it away.

I, for example, thought I found all sorts of symbolism in "Under The
Ivy".  There's ivy.  There's a garden.  There's a white rose.  I ask
Kate about all this wonderful, deep, rich, lush, layered symbolism,
and what does Kate say?  She says basically, "No, it's just a song
about two people sneaking into the back yard to fuck".  Well, IED, I
think that you have to face the fact that if you asked her any
questions about your notions of symbolism, she'd probably say the same
thing.

In any case, now I look for the fucking first, and save the deep
symbolism for later.

>    P.S.: How do you like that? _After_ writing the above, in which
> IED suggested that "Gaffa" -- as _capitalized_ by Kate -- might
> _also_ be intended to serve some kind of _place_ function, I now
> read in the latest Love-Hounds Digest a note from Craig Polson
> (thank you _very_much_, Craig!) a possible specific support of
> _just_ _this_very_point_! So "Gaffa" is a Japanese term for a
> useless, miserable place, eh??  How do you like that, |>oug???  And
> don't say you can't see how Kate would know of such a Japanese term.
> We both know the extent of a certain Bush's involvement in that
> culture.

> (Newly gloating, IED signs off for now...)

(1) If this turns out to be true, you can't really gloat, because I
    haven't said it isn't true.

(2) I think you'll have to provide some more concrete evidence than "a
    friend of mine told me a rumor that 'Gaffa' might be a Japanese
    word for purgatory".  Personally, I've already done way too much
    disproving of untrue rumors to want to make a trek to the library
    just to find out that there's no such Japanese word as "Gaffa".
    If you think it's a likely lead, you are more than welcome to do
    the legwork yourself.  If you find such a Japanese word, I'll be
    more than happy to agree with you, and will be happy to have
    learned something new.  I'm not holding my breath, however.

|>oug