Re: Bankrupt Record Chains

[Dongerous! <fastslow@idt.net>]

At 9:17 AM -0700 7-25-97, John D. Walker wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Dongerous! wrote:
>
>> At 7:11 PM -0700 7-22-97, John D. Walker wrote:
>> >Not only is the retail aspect of the music biz in trouble, but from my
>> >knothole the whole business is screwed and headed for big problems.
>>
>> I've been hearing this for decades...yet it still keeps plugging on. Wow.
>> Unbelievable.
>>
>
>Yeah, yeah, yeah.  I forgot the disco era, then remembered after I sent the
>post.  I was in junior high school then.  I was so tramatized I blacked
>that whole time period out.
>
>> >I can rant about it for hours on end, how the performers get
>> >screwed, how the industry is destroying the creative process, etc., etc.,
>> >ad nauseum.
>>
>> Take note of the word "industry." Kate Bush is a business woman and she
>> creates a product for consumers to purchase.
>>
>
>True.
>
>> >I think it's a safe bet that without Kate Bush, there'd be no Lilith
>> >Fair.
>>
>> Nonsense. What basis do you have for this statement.
>>
>
>When Sarah McLachlan first debuted, she claimed that Peter Gabriel and
>Kate Bush were two of her major influences, along with others.  Without
>Kate, would Sarah exist?  Would she be as successful as she has been?
>Would she have the clout to put a Lilith Tour together?

By this tortured reasoning, there'd be no Lilith Tour if the people who
influenced Kate Bush didn't exist. Why give KB all the credit?

>Maybe.  I don't think so.  You obviously feel otherwise.

I think the success of Alanis Morrisette has more to do with the Lilith
Tour happening than anything else. She proved that solo alternative female
artists can sell millions of records and lots of concert tickets. That's a
more realistic and direct correlation.

>> >It's also a safe bet that if Kate Bush hadn't had an awful lot
>> >of things go her way, had the right friends/connections (David Gilmore
>> >is ONE HELL of a major player, especially in the mid-70's), and then been
>> >able to deliver the goods when called upon to do so, this newsgroup
>> >wouldn't be here.
>>
>> That's for sure.
>>
>> However, you should thank the INDUSTRY for bringing her to your attention.
>> If there wasn't a music INDUSTRY, it's pretty unlikely that you would have
>> even heard of Kate Bush or that she would have made ANY records. It's not
>> like she's some gal with an acoustic guitar. Her records and videos cost
>> money, and the entire apparatus surrounding her is supported by the evil
>> INDUSTRY. Count your bleessing, John, if there were no INDUSTRY, you'd have
>> had to live in her neighborhood to have heard her.
>
>True.  But you'd have to admit that Kate's relationship with her label
>is different than say, Bush or Stone Temple Pilots.

I'd guess so. Bush and STP sell lots more records. Plus, they actively
promote their records. I'd think more motivated and hard-working artists
like this are preferred by a label employee. After all, those people work
hard too.

> I believe (can't
>prove, but believe) that Kate gets a lot less flack and meddling with her
>stuff than most other signed acts.  I attribute that to two things: David
>Gilmore and Wuthering Heights.

Maybe. My guess is that the label just doesn't care about her...which is
understandable because she doesn't seem to have much interest in her career.

>> >Kate always had integrity, which is basically dead now.
>>
>> More nonsense, John. Nirvana had integrity...listen to "In Utero." Green
>> Day has integrity, for that matter. Check out their pre-"Dookie" releases
>> on Lookout Records. They were doing the same stuff...it was just the
>> INDUSTRY brought their artistic vision to a wider audience. I don't have a
>> problem with that. Look at Alanis Morrisette. Her non-integrity dance
>> albums were dismal failures. "Jagged Little Pill" is brilliant and real, no
>> matter how many records it sold. Indeed, integrity can sell records.
>>
>
>Take this for what it's worth: I think Green Day is a perfect example of
>what I'm talking about.  Rehashed Ramones without the intelligence, sells
>huge, but there's nothing there.

It appears that you have never looked at a Green Day lyric sheet nor heard
an album. Having been a Ramones fan since 1976, I can assure you that they
have little in common with Green Day. Musically, GD is more like, say, The
Jam. Sure, my dad couldn't tell the difference, but I'd think the average
discriminating rock fan could. Lyrically, GD's themes are much more
sophisticated than the Ramones. Have you REALLY listened to Green Day OR
the Ramones?

> I have not heard the pre-Dookie stuff
>so I reserve judgement on that.

It's very similar, which was my point. They made it without selling out.

> Nirvana - you're right on that
>one.  Nevermind was like a breath of fresh air.  In Utero I can't make my
>mind up on.  I'm not sure exactly what the point was, but I love
>"Tourette's".  "Jagged Little Pill" is quite good.

It's nice to find someone smart enough to admire "Tourette's" and JLP.
We'll just have to get you up to speed on Green Day.

>But for each of these, there are the clones:
>Nirvana - Bush
>Pearl Jam - The Nixons
>Alanis - Meredith Brooks

I think Bush is pretty great. Again, I don't think they sound all that much
like Nirvana...but, yes, my dad would say they do.

>And this one of my problems with the industry.  Occasionally something blows
>through the noise, but then it gets run into the ground by the clones.

Sometimes the clones are pretty good...or better. You think Elvis was the
only decent artist in the '50s. I think he was eclipsed by many of his
"clones," including people like Carl Perkins.

>Same thing happened to metal in the 80's.

Really?

>It will be interesting to see how the Prodigy fare, and if they can
>sustain the hype they're getting.  I have my doubts.

I don't think much of AOL, Compuserve or Prodigy.

>A lot of "new" music is simply rehashed old music.  Was this the case in
>say, 1977?  Would Green Day exist at all had the Ramones and Sex Pistols
>never happened?

No, but the Ramones would not have existed without the MC5 and Stooges. The
Sex Pistols were direct decesdents of Mott the Hoople ("Brain Capers"
period), as well as the New York Dolls (Malcolm McClaren managed both the
Dolls and the Pistols). Both the Sex Pistols and The Clash were hugely
inspired by the Ramones. Does that invalidate those bands. The Beatles owed
a huge debt to American R&B, plus people like Carl Perkins (they covered
three of his songs during their career) and Buddy Holly. The Stones were
aping American bluesmen and Chuck Berry. Some day some band will come out
and you'll say, with distain, "Those guys would never have happened without
Green Day." So what? You don't think Kate Bush had a record collection? You
don't think she was inspired and influenced by them. When a friend of mine
first played me "Wuthering Heights," he prefaced by saying, "You have to
hear this. There's this girl that sings like Russell Mael (of Sparks)."
Would KB existed at all without Sparks...who popularized the extreme
fallseto in England in the early '70s?

>> > I can't see her
>> >whoring herself out as "KT Spice" or something just to make it,
>>
>> That wouldn't work because she wouldn't be good at it.
>>
>I don't think it works even though the Spice Girls ARE good at it.  :p

Actually, when I see them I quickly change the channel. I'd guess they're
good at what they do, based on their success.

>> >and there
>> >ain't no way you'd get a "Wurthering Heights" on the radio in 1997.
>>
>> Maybe...maybe not. Who would have thought "Smells Like Teen Spirit" would
>> have been a hit before it happened?
>>
>
>How did it happen?  I recall this as a corporate push, where the label
>and MTV got behind them and made it work.  With that kind of clout behind
>you, you're gonna' get somewhere.  So I guess you probably could get
>Wuthering on the radio....

Check out page 59 of the 7/21/97 issue of Newsweek. There's an interesting
chart that follows the ups and downs of trends. It explains how stuff like
this happens in much more depth than I am willing to go into here.
Basically, it breaks a trend into four stages....Fringe (pre-cool), Trendy
(cool), Mainstream (post-cool) and Mutation (neo-cool). Each step is
difficult to make and predict, but they do happen.

>So what comes first, the chicken or the egg?

The egg, in this case.

> Are recording stars created
>by the industry, or does the industry simply speed up something that
>would have happened naturally?

The industry trying to get out in front of a trend that in in the "Fringe"
or "Trendy" stage and make the most of it when it gets "Mainstream." Lots
of times they buy into a trend that doesn't happen. Someone mentioned
Jobriath a while ago. Glitter was a prefect example of a trend that didn't
go Mainstream in America. Punk took forever in America. It started with the
Ramones in 1976 and didn't hit Mainstream until 15 years later!

>  Would "Smells Like Teen Spirit" have
>succeeded without the push?  Dunno.  We were ripe for a change in 1991.

It's almost impossible for anything to succeed without the push. But, the
push alone cannot guarantee success.

>> >Kate
>> >is an incrediblly gifted person, but she was also real lucky, in the
>> >right place at the right time, and able to maintain control of her career
>> >because she did so well out of the gate.
>>
>> Right.
>>
>Thanks.
>
>> >It's also interesting how the media/radio/advertising steers that little
>> >"under-25" demographic around. I think we get a little harder to lead
>> >around by the nose as we age, which is probably why the labels ignore the
>> >over 35 set (besides the fact that we don't spend as much money).
>>
>> Boy, I disagree with this. The over-35 set is the EASIEST to lead around by
>> the nose. Just do some reunion tour (Kiss, Fleetwood Mac, Eagles, etc.) and
>> watch the lemmings show up. Young people are much more independent record
>> buyers. Who do you think is buying Judybats records, anyway? 40 year olds?
>> C'mon.
>>
>And I disagree with this.  But I did go see the KISS tour.  Twice.

And I saw the Sex Pistols last year. Of course, I saw them in '78 with Sid
Vicious and I was excited by the opportunity to see them with Glen Matlock
(who has a superb new album out, BTW).

>  I
>would've liked it better if they had made a new record first.  KISS is at
>least honest about the motivation: they need the money.

Money was the openly admitted motivation of the Sex Pistols, also. However,
I was glad that there was no new album. It was breathtaking how powerfully
they delivered the new songs. Actually, it worked because their songs are
about alienation in general, and not the more fleeting feeling of youthful
alienation.

Still, go to a alternative record store. It's filled with kids...not people
over 35. Go to Blockbuster and you've got family men and their kids buying
whatever's on the Top 40 charts.

>> >Enough ranting - like I said, I can do this for hours.
>>
>> If you're going to spend that much time, please try to better think through
>> what you're saying.
>>
>Thanks so much for the kind words. :P

Sure.

>I don't know much about you, but I have had some experience in the industry
>and it hasn't been particularly pleasant.  Prehaps you have some first hand
>experience as well?

Plenty. My wife was in a band that was signed and put out records. The
music business is a business. It's a tough business. It's an agressive
business.

>We've been courted by publishers, record labels, producers, and others
>over the years.  There was always some aspect to the deal that kept it
>from getting done.  Some people are willing to sign anything just to get
>a record out.  We're not.

If you don't like the music industry, why don't you just put out your own
records and have whatever it is you call artistic integrity? You have your
needs in a contract...a label has theirs.

> Music has become a commodity, and musicians
>are the machines that manufacture it.

Music has always been a commodity. Kings used to hired people like Mozart
to make music for them.

>Kate is incredibly lucky to be in the situation she's in.

It's a double edged sword. I'd like to see her work harder. I'd like to see
her go out on tour with a four piece band (guitar, keyboards, bass, drums),
play sweaty clubs with low ceilings and deal with a mosh pit that develops
for "Sat In Your Lap." She'd make better records, I guarantee you.

- Don