Re: Psychological Pressure

[caen!bsbbs!mdc@harvard.harvard.edu (Melissa D. Caldwell)]

From: katefans@chinet.chi.il.us (Chris n Vickie)
 
Vickie writes: 

> There are many people who will not want to read this. I apoligise in 
> advance of their being inconvenienced. News readers can just hit "n"
> but Digest readers will not have that choice. I'm sorry, but "scroll
> down very fast" is the best advice I can give.

I agree with Vickie on this point.  I hope to end the public
discussion of this topic with this message.  Please e-mail further
comment to me.

> This thread started with the PMRC, and led to Larry's equating psychological
> force with physical force. Melissa Caldwell took offense at this equation.

Larry wrote:

ld> Psychological and emotional pressure are much more powerful forces because
ld> they are more elusive - in many ways it's easier to stand your ground
ld> against an attacker who is beating on you physically than one who is 
ld> concentrating on breaking down a psychological barrier, because the former
ld> is much more direct - it's tangible - you can see a physical bruise - 
ld> you can try to deflect a penis making its way toward your vagina - you
ld> can sit in the front seat of a bus or at a lunch counter and refuse to move.
ld> 
ld> But psychological pressure is different - when someone says "If you really
ld> loved me you'd sleep with me" or "It's only because you're frigid that 
ld> you won't sleep with me" or "Only immoral people would want to listen to
ld> that music" the attacker crawls under the skin - causing you to doubt 
ld> yourself.  It takes a much stronger defense to battle these sorts of
ld> attacks effectively, and because the constraints of physical force are
ld> removed, the attacker can sustain himself/herself for much longer periods
ld> of time.

Vickie again...

> To be presumptuous, I tend to think that what you are referring to amounts
> to turning down/turning away someone like a school date who is pestering a
> girl to go all the way, or a co-worker who is harrassing a woman to go to
> bed with him, to use a couple of common examples of psych pressure most
> women have had to put up with. In cases like that, it's true that very often
> it's "weakness of character" that results in sex. No, it's not forcible
> rape, and shouldn't be equated. Even so, psychological scars can result from
> the guilt and the anguish of such a sexual encounter. 

Very succinctly stated.  This was my entire point.  Equating
common examples of psychological pressure with forcible rape is
exactly what Larry did.  The rest of your post seems unnecessary
unless you were intentionally attempting to distort my position
into something you could argue against.

Later Larry mentioned his own unfortunate experience, but even
then he referred only to being pressured and lonely.  We were not
discussing abuse or torture.  Re-read the post.
 
> M> If anything, pressure of this sort increases my will to resist.
> M> We make our own choices.  Claiming that some of these choices are the
> M> result of psychological force is a way of conveniently avoiding personal
> M> responsibility.
> 
> I see no qualifiers here. None whatsoever. You state this as fact.

The posts I make are my own views.  You chose one line from my
post which did not contain a qualifier and say that I'm stating it
as fact.  That statement is my opinion.  

> Can you reconcile that phrase with the example of a child who is
> sexually abused by a parent/relative/babysitter/whoever. If there is

Larry wasn't talking about child abuse.  You took the conversation
in that direction on your own.  The subject of child abuse has
nothing to do with the post Larry originally made.  Child abuse is
not psychological force as Larry defined it.  I don't disagree
that children are pressured- but they don't have the freedom or
understanding to make choices.  Their physical well being depends
upon their cooperation with the abuser.  (For the qualifier
impaired, the above is my opinion only)

> Melissa still talking at Larry:
> M> I felt your remarks were sexist because you said that a woman can
> M> try to deflect a penis headed toward her vagina.   By talking
> M> specifically about the rape of a woman by a man and then downplaying 
> M> that as being less harmful than "psychological force", your comments
> M> sounded extremely sexist to me.  That sort of statement supports the 
> M> notion that women would not be raped if they would only resist.  
> M> Resistance can be effective, but many times it is not an option.  
> 
> Did you think up the above because Larry is a man? Does being male make
> him an easy target for your thoughtless rantings? What if *I* had said what 
> Larry said? I'm a female, would you accuse me of "sounding sexist?" 
> I happen to *agree* with what Larry said. So, call me sexist too. Before
> you do though, I should tell you that I've been raped. By force. Knowing

If you said what he did, and it was worded in the same way, I
absolutely would.  It's not surprising that we have different
views on sexism.  

> again, maybe I couldn't have, and just maybe I would have been left on a
> mountain at night in the middle of nowhere in the middle of winter in the
> middle of a snowstorm. As was very convincingly threatened.
> 
> How did I get myself into that situation, I might be asked (therefore
> subtly implying that what occured was my fault) and the answer is...
> I was a truck co-driver. He was my boss.  Was it "weakness of character" 
> that made me decide that using my body was better than being thrown out of
> the truck? No, I'd categorize it more along the lines of survival instinct.
> Can this situation be classified as "rape?" I think so. Was it "physical"
> rape? No. Was it rape using "psychological" force? Yes. Why was it more
> tramautic than the physical rape? Because of the societal attitude that a
> woman can resist psychological force if they have enough "strength of
> character." Deja Vu.

As far as your personal experiences are concerned... I can and do
sympathize.  However, in my view, what happened to you that winter
night constitutes forcible rape.  You yourself say that you were
threatened with actual physical harm.  That man would have
abandoned you to the elements when he knew that it could kill you,
and he made you fear for your safety.  You had no choice.  You did
what you had to do to save your life.  You were not responsible
for that event. 

> I'm happy that you've obviously never had to experience psychological
> force/pressure/abuse/torture. You are very lucky. You've led a charmed 
> life. Good for you. I mean that sincerely and honestly. I would never wish 
> harm, physical or psychological, on anyone. You seem to have lived a very
> normal, wholesome life and I think that's wonderful. But...
>  
> Melissa, you don't know anything about the real world.
...
> There are much more serious forms of psychological pressure than the above
> examples though. You don't seem to think so, because you've never had the
> misfortune of experiencing any, and don't know anyone who has. That's nice,
> and again, I'm happy for you, but have you ever heard of the words "empathy"
> or "compassion?" If so, do you know what they mean? If so, have you ever
> felt either of these emotions? If so, are they reserved for family and 
> friends only?  
...
> Melissa, you have the empathy and compassion of a double-edged razor blade. 
...
> Maybe you should stop applying your own standards to the entire population 
> of the Planet Earth, because maybe you have no idea what *real* psycho-
> logical force is, and maybe you have no idea what *real* harm psychological
> abuse can cause.

You've totally lost it here.  What a load of rubbish.  Just
because I don't wear my guilt and pain like a crown doesn't mean
that I haven't experienced trauma or tragedy.  In the above
comments you've reached even greater heights of hypocrisy than I
thought you capable of.  You pretend to be so sensitive and then
you post this kind of crap.  You've asked me if I know what the
words empathy and compassion mean.  Perhaps you should find out
what they mean for yourself first before you judge me.    

You know nothing about me.  You haven't the faintest idea what
I've experienced in my life, yet you are apparently qualified to
tell me what I've experienced.  In case you have forgotten, you
made several very nasty remarks without qualifiers.  You are so
certain that I've "led a charmed life" that you are incapable or
unwilling to understand that people deal with things differently. 

I could be a victim for the rest of my life, and let past events
rule my present, but life is so precious that I can't see wasting
a minute of it dwelling on the past.  (This applies only to me- I
certainly don't expect you to agree)

I have experienced pain and intense suffering firsthand, both in
my personal and professional life.  Exactly what I've experienced
is none of your business.  I refuse to discuss it here.  Your
hysterical tirade has had the exact effect on me that I said
psychological pressure does.  I'll not be pressured into doing
something that I don't want to do just because you're baiting me.

> Melissa has every right to believe what she believes. I have every right to
> turn around and say that I think she's a thoughtless fluffhead. Richard has
...
> she implied. She has the right to say anything she wants, but I also have 
> the right to be totally outraged about it. I also have the right to view
> Larry as one of the bravest people I've ever come across on the net. 

Yes you're entitled to your opinions and are free to express them. 
I don't know why you think anyone here would object.  However, I
do object to comments made in the heat of the moment, with no
forethought and for which you can provide no proof or support. At
that point you jumped the chasm from reasonable _academic_
discussion to total hysteria.  As far as your name calling and
personal attacks on me are concerned, they don't bother me in the
least.  You attach far too much importance to your judgement of
me.   

        "They do say, Mrs. M, that verbal insults hurt more than
        physical pain.  They are, of course, wrong, as you will
        soon discover when I stick this toasting fork in your
        head."

					-- Blackadder III


 Melissa Caldwell                         You want my reply?
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