The |>oug /\lan interview, by request

[IED0DXM%OAC.UCLA.EDU@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]

 To: Love-Hounds
 From: Andrew Marvick (IED)
 Subject: The |>oug /\lan interview, by request

 >Date:  9 Jan 89 09:08:23 +1000 (Mon)
 > From: munnari!qfdts.oz.au!kas@uunet.UU.NET (Kas Sommers)
 >
 > To: Love-Hounds@EDDIE.MIT.EDU@munnari.oz
 > Subject: Mailing list and interview
 >
 >     Hi!  I am new to rec.music.gaffa and need some help.
 >What is the mailing list about? and can I get a copy of
 >the interview between Doug and Kate?
 >
 >-- kas

   Welcome, kas. Love-Hounds is about Kate Bush (or should be). Sometimes
people get off on irrelevant (and consequently unimportant) sidelines,
like "XTC" or "Sinead O'Connor" or other similar pet interests, but
most of the time the One Supreme and All-Encompassing Subject of Kate
Bush remains at the forefront.
   Here is |>oug's interview, as annotated by IED (not nearly as
extensively as he would have _liked_ to have annotated it!). Note:
all comments in parentheses are from the original text, but all
comments contained within brackets (<>) are IED's additions.


                  Doug Alan's _Love-Hounds_ interview (fall, 1985)

     <The following is an interview undertaken by Doug Alan,
the founder and (erstwhile?) Pseudo-Moderator of _Love-Hounds_,
the only worldwide computer group devoted to the
subject of Kate's music. The views expressed by Doug
are not necessarily those of _Love-Hounds_
as a group. Doug has asked that a disclaimer be added, explaining
that at the time of the interview he was "suffering from a
a severe hormonal imbalance, but that he's better now." This edition
was grumpily annotated and re-edited by Andrew Marvick.>


                    _Half_an_Hour_With_Kate_Bush_

                     An interview by Doug Alan

     "I was going to ask you for a fag, but this man might kill
me" are the first words I hear from Kate Bush as I as am shown
into her small but comfortable hotel room in Manhattan by an
EMI-America representative. I guess Kate noticed my t-shirt with
an international "No Smoking" symbol proudly emblazoned on its
front.
     I want to reply "No, Kate...", but instead, I just manage to
mumble something incoherent. The EMI representative leaves and
Kate opens the window, letting in an atmospheric Manhattan sound.
     She is here in the States for the first time since '78.
<Since the date of this interview Kate has mentioned having
made a second visit to the United States prior to the 1985
promotional tour.> She has come to promote her new album,
_Hounds_of_Love_, for one week, and I have half an hour
of that week.
     I interviewed Kate on the evening of November
20th. It is a summer day in the middle of November. 75 degrees
warm. A warm and unusual day to interview a warm and unusual
person. Kate has opened the window letting in the atmospheric
honks and roars of Manhattan traffic to add flavor to our
conversation.
      She is incredibly nice. Soon I remember that I have
only half an hour, and I manage to pile out my tape equipment,
connect up the microphones, and start the tape rolling...
    "One, one, one, one, one, two, two, testing.  Am I loud and
clear?"
     That sounds pretty good.
     "Good!"
     (My microphone doesn't appear to be working, however...)
I don't sound so good, though...I don't matter--I can
dub my voice in later.
     "Ask me completely different questions, eh?"
     (I try to think of a witty reply, but my brain has long
since ceased functioning, and instead I just mumble something
incoherent again. Kate makes a throat-clearing noise.
I flounder around for a few moments, but soon figure out
that my microphone isn't turned on.)
     Now I'm coming in!
    "Great!"
     Okay...I guess I'm ready to start.
     A song of yours for which the symbolism in the lyrics
really fascinates me is _There_Goes_a_Tenner_ (from _The_Dreaming).
You've said that it is just a simple song about
bank robbery, but the more I look at it, the more it seems
that nearly every line is really sort of an allusion to your
recording career at the time you were recording The
Dreaming. You wouldn't deny that this was intended, would
you?
     "Yes, I would deny it."
     You would?
     "Yes. It's very much a song about bank robbery. I wouldn't
say it was a simple song about bank robbery, but it's about
the fear that people feel rather than the glorification of
bank robbers."
     I dunno. It seems like...Well, to me it seems every line
sort of could parallel your recording career. I won't go
and explain it, but like one example is "There goes a tenner."
"Tenner" could be a ten-dollar <sic> bill--it could
also be a level of singing: you know, like soprano, alto,
tenor. And sort of every line is like that.  But you don't
agree?
     "Well, no I don't because that's not...That was...nothing
that was in my head when I was writing it. But then I think
the interpretations that people have of your songs
afterwards are nothing to do with me anyway. I think it's
up to them to get what they can out of the song."
    Okay. That seems reasonable. Maybe it was all
subconscious. It seems so perfect to me. I dunno.
   I read an interview where the interviewer asked you if
_Running_Up_That_Hill_ is about the contemplation of
suicide. And I thought that was pretty amusing, because it
seemed to me clearly not to about any such thing at all. On
the other hand, strangely enough, that's just what
_Under_the_Ivy_ (the b-side of Kate's _Running_Up_That_Hill_ single)
seems to be about to me. The tone of the song is
very, very sad.  And it seems to be about longing for the
lost innocence of youth--perhaps a follow-up to
_In_Search_of_Peter_Pan_ (from Kate's second album _Lionheart_.)
A white rose is a strong image in the song. And it could be a
symbol for friendship or innocence, but it could also be a
symbol for death. You sing "Away from the party", and it
seems like you might almost mean "away from the problems and
triviality of modern day life". You sing "It wouldn't take
me long to tell you how to find it", and it seems like you
might almost be addressing Death itself. You mention a
secret, but never mention what it is. Could it be the taboo
we have of suicide? What are your feelings about this
interpretation, and what were your intentions with the
song?
    "Well, I think...uh, it...perhaps you are reading much more
into it than was originally intended when I wrote it. It's
very much a song about someone who is sneaking away from a
party to meet someone elusively, secretly, and to possibly
make love with them, or just to communicate, but it's
secret, and it's something they used to do and that they
won't be able to do again. It's about a nostalgic,
revisited moment."
     Is there any reason why it's so sad?
     "I think it's sad because it's about someone who is
recalling a moment when perhaps they used to do it when they
were innocent and when they were children, and it's
something that they're having to sneak away to do privately
now as adults."
.bf ital
     _My_Lagan_Love_ (the bonus track on Kate's _Cloudbusting_
twelve-inch single) is another song of yours that seems very
sad. I looked up the word "lagan" in the dictionary, and it
means "cargo thrown into the sea attached to a buoy so that
it can be recovered later". But you use the word "Lagan" as
a name of someone, perhaps a deity. In any case, the
dictionary meaning seems to go well with the song, because
it seems in the song that your Lagan love has died. You
sing "Where Lagan's light fell on the hour/I saw him far
below me/Just as the morning calmed the storm/With no one
there to hold him". This seems to conjure up the image of
looking down into a grave at your Lagan love. But perhaps
he will return again "when the sun and the moon meet on yon
hill," or whatever. Could you say more about this
song?
     "Yes. _My_Lagan_Love_ is a traditional song that is one of
the most beautiful tunes I think exists in traditional
music. And throughout the years, people have used the song
and their own versions of the lyrics to it. The most famous
version of the song, I think, uses lyrics from a Keats poem.
<After a prolonged search, I have not been able to find a link
between Keats and the original lyrics of _My_Lagan_Love_.
Kate's brother John has said that the lyrics were written in
the 1920s.>
     "I wanted to do a track that wouldn't be on the album,
that would go on the twelve inch, so that people that were
buying the album and the single had something extra that
didn't come off the album. And it seemed like a quick, easy
track to do, that would be unaccompanied--a traditional
song."
     Did you agree with that meaning of the song, or what was
your intention with the meaning of the lyrics?
    "I think the lyrics are really just a vehicle for the song.
I wanted to do the song and it had no traditional lyrics.
We had to find some to go with it, so we pulled together
some lyrics with my brothers and just put them to the music.
It wasn't something that I put a great deal of thought into
at all!"
    Okay.
     (It turns out that John Carder Bush, Kate's oldest brother,
wrote the lyrics Kate sings to _My_Lagan_Love_. When I talked to
him about it, he said that the song is indeed about a woman's
lover who has died, and the lines quoted above do describe her
looking down into his grave. It is based on a story <sic> by James
Joyce called _The_Dubliners_ <sic>. Lagan, it turns out, is a place in
Ireland, and John was not aware of the dictionary meaning of the
word "lagan" before I mentioned it to him, but he said that the
dictionary meaning really is very appropriate for the song, and
was amused by this coincidence.)
.bf ital
     Burning Bridge,
.pf
     _Burning_Bridge_, the other song on your (Kate makes
another throat-clearing noise) _Cloudbusting_ single,
seems to be a more desperate retelling to me of a
much earlier song of yours, _Passing_Through_Air_.
Could you say something about _Burning_Bridge_?
     "Um...Again it was a song that was totally created for a
b-side, and I knew that it was going on the other side of
_Cloudbusting_. _Cloudbusting_ is not necessarily an
up-tempo song and I feel that flips of records should be
something that counterbalances the energy of the other side.
So, I wanted something that was relatively up-tempo, and
just a fun song. I don't think the lyrics are by any means
profound, but it was something that I felt was fun to do and
was a very different energy from the a-side of the record."
     It's sort of...I don't know if it's incredibly...I mean
it's up-tempo, but it still has a sort of desperate sadness
to it, don't you think?
     "Actually, I think it's incredibly positive and quite
trivial."
     Okay.
     On the song _Jig_of_Life_ you seem to hint that you are
planning on maybe having children. In an interview six or seven
years ago, I believe you said that you weren't planning on
having children, but that if you did it would mean the end
of your recording career. Have you changed your mind about
having children? And if so, would you really give up your
recording career?
     "I haven't changed my mind about having children, no. But
it's not necessarily something that I wouldn't change my
mind about at some point.
_The_Jig_of_Life_ is very much about the visitation of the future. Your
future self coming to visit you to stop you dying--to make sure you stay
alive. And the use of the mention of children is really to
use the image. In the future, apart from getting old, what
happens to people? They get married; they have kids. So
that's why it's being used--purely as a poetical vehicle
of explaining the situation that time has passed between the
present and the future."
     But you don't necessarily see that happening to you, in
specific?
     "No I don't, no."
     What is your opinion on the commercialization of art?
     "I think the purpose of a record company is to sell as many
records as they can, and that is their total main concern.
If something is successful, they are happy. If something is
artistically good, but is not successful, then they can't
really be prepared to follow that through. Their business
is not art--it's money and selling records to make money.
     "I think that's part of the reason why the business is
so hard, because you're talking about two completely
different forces having to be integrated. Artistic people,
a lot of the time, don't have a good business sense, and a
lot of the time it's totally against everything they feel--
it's about money, commercialization, exploitation. It's not
anything to do with a creative spirit, which deals in
sensitivity and observation of people, emotions. They're
two completely different forces. And I think to survive in
this business, you have to be realistic, and if music is
what matters to you, there's a certain amount of business
that you have to be involved in in order to be able to keep
making music.
     "So, I think for me, the way I cope with it, is to try
and keep a realistic balance between the things I like and
don't like doing. I have to do things I don't like in order
to make sure my work will survive."
     Sounds like a good answer to me....
     I think _The_Dreaming_ is just about as good an album
as any ever recorded, but unfortunately, it wasn't much of a
commercial success compared to your other albums. Was
_The_Dreaming_ financially successful enough so that if all your
records were only that successful, you'd still be able to
continue making records the way you want to?
     "That's a very difficult question. I don't know. I think
as long as an album is relatively successful, then you can
afford to make another one. I think also, the thing about
records is that they don't necessarily stop selling after a
year of being released. I think it's possible that _The_Dreaming_
could continue to sell more than the others in the
future--"
     Sure hope so! (Wait...I didn't mean to say that that
way.)
     "--and that that might be the one that keeps me in my old
age. It's very difficult to say, and I think
all I do really is put out the best I can, and hope
people like it. And if I've done the best I can, then
there's nothing more I can do."
     One can't help but notice that the first three songs
on your new album, though quite excellent indeed, have a
distinctly more "commercial pop" sound to them than anything on
_The_Dreaming_. Was this to help make the album sell
better than _The_Dreaming_, or did you feel it artistically
important to make some music that might be more accessible
to more people, or did it just come sort of come out that
way?
     "I don't feel that it is that much more obviously
commercial. I mean, I think from what people say, they feel
that it is, but for me they are very similar energies. They
are just trying to create as interesting a song as possible
with the best production to accompany it. And to make it
different. And I think what makes it more accessible for
people is the consistency of rhythm. I can't really see
that much difference, apart from how different songs are
anyway from each other."
     Well, did you think to yourself, "Well, if I use a
consistency of rhythm that it will be more accessible to
more people" when you went about writing the song, or did
you--
     "No."
    --just want to do that?
     "Well, I write a song because it's what I like at the time.
On the last album (_The_Dreaming_) I was beginning to get very
intrigued with the use of rhythm. I really like using
rhythm, and I think this album is a progression of how I've
learned to work with it."
     Your song _Breathing_ seems to be written from the point of
view of a fetus about to be born into a post-holocaust
world. One might think from this and from your being a
vegetarian, that you would be opposed to abortion. What are
your feelings on the morality and legality of abortion?
     "I think that is a very difficult subject and something
that's far too easy to generalize about. But I think that
life is something that should be respected and honored even
in a few hours of its conception."
     Do you think that abortion should be illegal?
     "I don't feel that I want to comment on that."
     Okay.
     When I first heard the title of your new album _Hounds_of_Love_,
a long time before the album was actually released,
it seemed to me like a reference to fans. It sort of
conjured up the image of The Beatles constantly being
hounded by their adoring fans, who would attack them,
because each fan wanted a little piece of their idols. So the title
_Hounds_of_Love_ seems to hint at a love/hate
relationship with fans. The love/hate relationship also
seems to be symbolized on the picture sleeve to _Running_Up_That_Hill_,
where you are aiming a bow that could be Cupid's
bow, but is also a deadly weapon. Did you have these things
in mind?
     "No. I'd like to say straight away it's absolutely nothing
to do with a love/hate relationship with fans and, in fact,
that, as far as I am concerned, is something that doesn't
exist. I have no resentment or dislike for any of the
people that like my music, at all. If anything, it's a
great honor for me that such nice people are attracted by
the music. And that song has nothing to do with fans--
it's about love--it's about someone who's afraid of being
captured by love, and it's seeing love as a pack of hounds
that's coming to get them. As something they're frightened
of--not willing to accept."
     Well, I would sort of maintain that any love relationship
is a love/hate relationship, in that--
     "Yes."
    --there are always problems that come along with...
     "I would totally agree, but it's got nothing to do with my
fans!"
     Okay.
     In the song _Hounds_of_Love_,  what do you mean by the
line "I'll be two steps on the water", other than a way of
throwing off the scent of hounds, or whatever, by running
through water. But why "two" steps?
     "Because two steps is a progression. One step could
possibly mean you go forward and then you come back again.
I think 'two steps' suggests that you intend to go forward.".
     But why not "three steps"?
     "It could have been three steps--it could have been ten,
but 'two steps' sounds better, I thought, when I wrote the
song."
     Okay.
     You've said elsewhere that _Jig_of_Life_ was inspired
by a Greek ceremony. Could you describe this ceremony and
say how it appears in the song?
     "My brother (Paddy Bush) discovered a piece of music that
was used in a Greek religious ceremony, where people worked
themselves into a trance state through the hypnotic quality
of the music and then begin to walk on fire. The piece of
music is incredible and has a very hypnotic rhythm. And it
was the piece of music that I then used to base the song
upon. The inspiration was totally a musical one and a
rhythmic one."
     Did you write the poem that is narrated at the end of
_Jig_of_Life_?
     "No, I didn't. My brother (John Carder Bush) wrote that."
     That's what some of us thought. It seemed like a slightly
different style. It seemed more like his style--from what
people have been able to infer of his style without seeing
much of his poetry.
It's a really wonderful poem.
     "It is."
     So, tell him I like it!
     I find the use of strong symbolism and metaphor and
allusions in your lyrics to be extremely interesting. For
example, in _Get_Out_of_My_House_, the woman who is singing
the song has been left by her lover and feels hurt, and
identifies herself with a house. This is a biblical
allusion.  When she says "I wash the panes", it is a triple
entendre, because she's saying she's washing the windows of
her body, which are the eyes. This means she's crying, and
by doing so, she's washing the hurt and pain away. Then she
says "No stranger's feet will enter me" saying that she
won't let anyone into her house, which is saying she won't
let anyone into her body, which is also reinforced by the
biblical use of "feet" as a euphemism for "private parts".
The layers of meaning here, are pretty incredible.
     Then a man tries to enter her life again, but she's too
scared, and she tries to escape by flying away, but he turns
into the wind. She then turns into a mule, perhaps for its
stubborn ability to withstand the wind. And then he also
turns into a mule. Now it seems that they have a ground for
communication. Because mules are neuter, and they can
communicate on a platonic level rather than a sexual level.
     Now a friend of mine believes that this last part is a
flaw in the song, because mules are not really neuter after
all. They are only sterile. Personally, I think it isn't a
flaw because the idea comes across loud and clear to me, and
somehow it seems that "I change into the amoeba: Ooze!
Ooze!" just wouldn't work so well. So the question is,
what do you think of this interpretation? And could you
respond to my friend's slight criticism?
     "And what was your friend's criticism?"
     He said that the ending is a flaw because mules are not
really neuter, they are only sterile.
     "What does he mean?"
     Well, it seems to me--and to him--that the end of the
song is sort of a positive note because they've found a
grounds for communication. And sort of on a platonic level,
because mules might be seen as being platonic, because...
     "Why?"
     Oh...well...Mules are sterile...uh...A donkey and a horse...you
know...have a sexual relationship, and then they have
mules, and mules don't have children, but they really can have
sex. They just can't have children, but a lot of people actually
think that they just don't have sex. Which isn't really
true.
     "Right! Well, um...I think you...It's kind of weird the
level of interpretation that you are reading into things,
because...I mean, a mule--in our country--all it
represents is a stupid animal. They are considered stupid.
<This, of course, is the dominant significance of the mule
as a symbol in the United States, as well. The expression
"stubborn as a mule" is considerably better known in both
countries than the sterile condition of the animal--as
the interviewer ought to know.>
And that's the allusion that was being used in that case.
And it's very much a play on a traditional song called
_The_Two_Magicians_ about someone who's trying to escape someone,
and they keep changing their form in order to escape them.
But the other thing keeps changing its form. And that's
actually what the whole song is about--someone who is
running away from something they don't want to face, but
wherever they go, the thing will follow them. Basically,
you can't run away from things--you've got to confront
things. And it's using the person as the imagery of a
house, where they won't let anyone in, they lock all the
doors and windows, and put a guard on the front door. But I
think the essence of the song is about someone trying to run
away from things they don't like and not being able to
escape--because you can't."
     But if the symbol of mules is just stupidity, at the end,
then it would seem like it would be a negative ending, and
it just sort of seems to me, most of your songs...a lot of
them...end on up notes. And it sort of seemed like it was
a positive note at the end.
     "Yes, I think the mule is that kind of...the stupid
confrontation...I mean, there's not really that much to
read into it. It was the idea of playing around with
changing shape, and the mule imagery was something I liked
inordinately. The whole thing of this wild, stupid, mad
creature just turning around and going, you know,
'Eeyore! Eeyore!' (Kate makes convincing eeyore sounds.)
I don't know if you saw Pinocchio, but there's an
incredibly heavy scene in there, where one of the little
boys turns into a donkey--a mule. And it's very heavy
stuff."
     I haven't seen that since about six, but I think I remember
that...It's a strong image.
     "Well, maybe you should see it again. It's a good film."
     In a recent interview you said, "I don't really know why
people think my songs are strange." I'm not sure that this
was said by the same person who sings "We let the weirdness
in" at the end of the song _Leave_It_Open_. In any case,
what is really strange about the singing at the end of
_Leave_It_Open, is that if you play it backwards, it also
sounds like intelligible singing. In fact, it sounds to me
like, "And they said they wouldn't let me in", which is
wonderful because then it has the opposite meaning backwards
as it does forwards. <Except that it does _not_ sound like
"And they said they wouldn't let me in" when played
backwards.>
      There is also something like this on _Hounds_of_Love_, in
the song _Watching_You_Without_Me_. There is one part where
you sing what to me sounds like "Really see" repeated
several times. And if you play this backwards, it sounds
exactly the same. Still like "Really see", though I'm not
sure it's "Really see"--it just sounds like that to me.
But whatever it sounds like, it sounds exactly the same backwards.
<This is false. The phrase, when played backwards, quite clearly
says, "We see you here.">
Well, the question is, I'd be really interested
in knowing how you did this sort of manipulation.
     "Well, that's something I've been experimenting with for a
while, and would like to continue experimenting with. It's just
a way of using backwards ideas, but actually saying
something cohesively."
     But how do you actually get a message or singing which
sounds like something both forwards and backwards. And what
are the technical issues involved. I mean, it seems like it
would be really hard to do.
     "It is. It's very difficult--it takes a lot of time and
an awful lot of patience."
     (Kate is saved by the bell, as her brother is at the
door, and my half hour is up. I talked to both of Kate's
brothers some time later, however, and neither had any qualms
about giving away the secret of the two-way messages. It
involves listening to singing played backwards on a tape deck,
learning to sing the backwards sounds, and then recording that
strange singing backwards. <This is apparently a reference to
the explanation given by Paddy and John to the entire audience
of the 1985 Kate Bush Convention in Romford, England. In fact,
however, their description of the process does nothing to explain
the apparent presence of two simultaneous messages, only the basic
method of creating the first, "backwards" message.>
In any case, Kate agrees to answer a couple more
questions...)
     Of your albums, which one is your favorite?
     "Um...I think the last album you do is always the one
that's closest to you because you've just spent the nearest
part of your life to it, but I think for artistic fulfillment, I
fulfillment, I think _The_Dreaming_ was certainly rewarding--to have
actually achieved some of the things that we set out to do. But you
have very much a strange relationship. I don't know if you
really like anything you do."
     Well...I like it a lot, so...
     "Good!"
     Before we end the interview, one more quick question.
What do you feed your cats?
     "Ummm...Food, normally."
     What kind of food?
     "Tinned food...and fish. Fishy-wishy!"

-- |>oug /\lan

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-- Andrew Marvick