Something is Rotten in the State of the Net, MarK

[Dave Hsu <hsu@eneevax.umd.edu>]

My thanks to Bill, Gregory, Rob, and others for clearing up my
suspicions and for pointing out the connection to rec.sport.misc.  I
must confess that even my newsaholism could not prevent me from
exercising the "c" key after the 20th or so article about the
Iditarod which had nothing to do with the race proper.

Despite a promise on my part not to breach this subject, I feel obligated
to momentarily suspend that vow in the hope that the readers of this
list/newsgroup will allow their rational halves to prevail.  Unless
|>oug has received specific orders from the net gods themselves, I can
see no aspect of this discussion which makes it particularly relevant
to this newsgroup (as opposed to the net as a whole) and suggest that
any future discussion be carried out in the appropriate group, perhaps
news.misc, and whatever its companion ARPA-list may be.

>Really-From: ganzer%trout@nosc.mil (Mark T. Ganzer)
>-------
>I don't know what this talk about a boycott is for because most of us don't
>know what the HELL is going on. Perhaps a few more details, Jim, would
>be enlightening, for what happened to you could happen to any of us.
>Also, I think your boycott will only decimate this group without
>resolving the problem, as your accuser will probably just go on his
>merry way thinking he has succeeded in his purpose. Your best recourse
>is to continue on as if nothing happened.

A small note regarding your discourse, Mark: whether or not Jim's accuser
is a male remains undemonstrated.  I'm trying to read your article in a
genderless fashion.

I agree that any boycott would be a tragic loss to this group, but
the rules of tact suggest that Hof's departure is par for the course,
although I hope it will only be a temporary arrangement.  While it may
appear to be unfair to link him to Wicinski's expulsion, I'm sure the
administrators at nrl would like nothing better than for this whole
affair to cool off, and neither you nor I can fault Jim for wanting to
keep quiet.

>Actually I'm a bit pissed that you lumped all of the rest of us into
>the same catagory as your crybaby accuser. These problems with language
>seem to crop up periodically in every newsgroup. Unfortunately, I doubt
>you'll find a computer mailing list where your freedom of speech is 
>totally guarenteed, because we are at the mercy of computer system
>operators and administrators who run a mostly benevolent dictatorship,
>not a democracy...

Whoa.  Calm down, Mark.  Hof has assured me that he meant no personal
affront to the vast majority of L-H'ers.  As Gregory's message shows,
however, we have ALL been accused, to some degree, before the eyes of
the net.  For those of us who have been respectfully (but fervently)
discussing topics of KaTian import, I think I can say that this episode
serves only as a source of protracted pain and embarassment.  Are we,
by staying out of the fire, somehow responsible?  Without reading
certain other groups, who among us could smell smoke?

>To whom it may concern:
>If you are offended by some of the language you see in this group,
>either show some tolerance or get out, as you are not going to get
>any sympathy from the rest of us, especially if it results in someone
>like Hofmann leaving the group...
>To the rest of us:
>A lot of abuse is thrown around in this group, and most of us see that
>it is usually all in jest. However, because this group does see a pretty
>large circulation on the Usenet, it might help to periodically put in
>some :-) signs when there is a question whether someone might take it
>seriously. I would hate to lose people from this group over a
>misunderstanding.
>
>MarK T. Ganzer

Whether or not we offer any sympathy to unwanted members is immaterial.
We waived that right when we became an official newsgroup.  As the ARPA
gods would have it, we probably gave up much of that when mail.katebush
became Love-Hounds in the list of lists so long ago.

While smiley-faces usually alleviate a great many problems, they do not
seem applicable to this discussion.  Aside from obvious aesthetic
incompatibilities, Wic's stated position has been that vulgarity is
intrinsic to art/life/whathaveyou, and THAT point he has made with
remarkable, uh, bluntness.  Satirical harassment is nevertheless
still harassment, and his failure to desist when told to by the other
party shows a severe flaw on his part.  I won't judge his real motives
though, as personal experience with net flamers far more caustic than
"Dickhead" (yes, Sue, hard to believe but true) shows me that things are
not always as they seem.  The problem at hand, however, is a far
greater one, and Rob's posting summarizes things rather well:

>Really-From: rosen@ji.Berkeley.EDU (Rob Rosen)
>
>	Well, rumours abound.  One of them is that Sue has threatened legal
>action.  Many people are worried that if this matter is brought to general
>public attention, bad things will happen.  One of them might be that ARPAnet
>sites will have news access severely curtailed or even removed completely, 
>because certain powerful figures might get very angry that American taxpayers'
>dollars are being spent on worldwide discussions about the nature of a certain
>musician's lyrical content.
>...
>	Relevant Issue: Censorship and the Role of the Moderator.  Should 
>moderators censor material which could be considered obscene?  Do practical
>matters override the vexing philosophical question at hand (should he who
>wields the power to censor define censorship?  What IS defined as obscene, 
>anyway?).  The practical matter I am referring to is basically that many
>administrators feel that they would rather censor any posting that could
>even be regarded as REMOTELY obscene rather than risk a loss of news access.
>With the recent change in newsgroup structure, is anything REALLY `moderated'
>anymore?

Again, as Rob notes, the first paragraph concerns RUMORS, and should be
taken with several large grains of salt.  Amidst all this talk of starting
new mailing lists, the question must be asked: just how equivalent are
moderated newsgroups to sanctioned mailing lists?  The (bandy)kin, although
not an officially public list, underwent the same sort of shakeout about a
year ago when membership and content became uncontrollable.  They solved it
only by taking most the list underground again and restoring it (the list)
to the status of a clique, something that would be disastrous to this group.

We should be appalled that some party or parties' decision to ignore or
bypass traditional if not established channels (e.g. the moderator) now
threatens the existence of the "interesting" side of the ARPAnet.  For
what it's worth, I treat you now to a portion (I've edited the headers and
omitted a redundant removal notice) of the exchange in which Jerry Pournelle
was thrown off the net.  Certainly, it illustrates how seriously system
administrators have taken the threat of ARPA intervention in the past.

>Date: Wed, 29 May 85 06:16:01 EST
>From: ...
>To: POURNE@MIT-MC.ARPA
>cc: USER-ACCOUNTS@MIT-MC.ARPA
>
>You used the word "ARPANET" in your June Byte column three times.  You
>even said
>
> "I gave Alex the local ARPANET access number to record for the 1200-baud
>  modem and inadvertently transposed two numbers."
>
>I don't care if Alex IS a computer -- you may soon find your accounts
>on MC decremented by gov't order.
>===
>Date: Thu, 30 May 85 18:44:42 EST
>From: ...
>To: POURNE@MIT-MC.ARPA
>cc: GUMBY@MIT-MC.ARPA
>In-reply-to: Msg of Thu 30 May 85 03:57:38 EST from Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE at MIT-MC.ARPA>
>
>    Date: Thu, 30 May 85 03:57:38 EST
>    From: Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE at MIT-MC.ARPA>
>
>    thank you. if left to you I suppose I cewrtainly will find my
>    accounts terminated.  Your nice private message appreciated.
>    seppuku follows..  maybe you ought to have me dumped off the net
>    and be done with it?  or must you work through someone else?
>    J. E. Pournelle
>
>USER-A is the mailing list created explicitly for dealing with these
>sorts of issues.  It is the appropriate forum for discussion.  There
>are eight people on user-a.  You probably know better than I do, but
>last I heard about 100,000 times as many people read BYTE.  Thus, the
>issue of privacy is the last one you should raise.
>
>I don't particularly want to force you into ritual disembowelment;
>rather, I'm interested -- and I'm not the only one -- in why you
>find it necessary to flaunt your use of the arpanet.  The more attention
>you (and other people) draw to non-blow-em-up use of the arpanet the
>more likely some Proxmire type is to start inquiring into its operations.
>===
>Date: Fri, 31 May 85 01:11:16 EST
>From: Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE@MIT-MC.ARPA>
>To: ...
>cc: GUMBY@MIT-MC.ARPA
>In-reply-to: Msg of Thu 30 May 85 18:44:42 EST
>
>I find this thoroughly distasteful.  If you have some authority
>to order me off the net, do so.  If not, leave me alone.
>===
>Date: Tue,  4 Jun 85 17:04:29 EST
>From: ...
>To: USER-ACCOUNTS@MIT-MC.ARPA
>
>Given POURNE's obnoxious attitiudes towards USER-A and
>his apparent belief that he has a god-given right to be
>on this machine and the network, we have flushed him.
>===

Don't construe this message to be an announcement of support for nor
condemnation of the parties involved, although I am glad that the net
administration at NRL absolved Jim of any wrongdoing.  I'm only trying
to head off a disastrous exodus by getting people to think twice before
doing, and to realize that the issues of administration and censorship
are inherent to the entire network, and not just to Love-Hounds or
rec.music.gaffa...a lengthy reminder that we are no longer housed in
our own, private, opaque enclave.

-dave
-- 
David T. Hsu			Newsaholic Emeritus
ARPA:	hsu@eneevax.umd.edu	UUCP: [seismo,allegra]!mimsy!eneevax!hsu
USNAIL: soon leaving the EE Computer Facility, U of Md, College Park, MD 20742
"This house is full of, full of, full of fight"