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From: nessus (Doug Alan)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 86 05:20:30 est
Subject: My tete-a-tete with Kate
[Cross-posted to net.music.]
(C) Copyright 1985 by Doug Alan. All rights reserved.
Half An Hour With Kate Bush
An interview by Doug Alan
"I was going to ask you for a fag, but this man might kill
me" are the first words I hear from Kate Bush as I as am shown
into her small but comfortable hotel room in Manhattan by an
EMI-America representative. I guess Kate noticed my T-Shirt with
an international No Smoking symbol proudly emblazoned on its
front.
I want to reply "No, Kate, I don't have to -- you're killing
yourself by smoking!". But I can't manage to get out these words
to an idol, especially when my heart feels like it's going to
pound my brain permanently into mush.
Maybe it's all for the best, anyway. Maybe it's all that
tar coating her vocal chords that has allowed her to sing lower
and with more rawness and power ever since "Breathing"
("...Breathing her nicotine..."), the last song on her third
album Never for Ever, without damaging her ability to also sing
----- --- ----
unbelievably beautifully when desired.
I want to reply "No, Kate...", but instead, I just manage to
mumble something incoherent. The EMI representative leaves and
Kate opens the window, letting in an atmospheric Manhattan sound.
She is here in the States for the first time since '78. She has
come to promote her new album, Hounds of Love, for one week, and
------ -- ----
I have half an hour of that week.
Hounds of Love is Kate's fifth album, and though she has
------ -- ----
been very popular in Europe and especially in England since '78,
this is the first album of hers to make it into the U.S. Top-100.
It has even made it up to number one on some college album
charts. This album and especially her previous album, The
---
Dreaming, are complete masterpieces and are proof that she is a
--------
very important artist, and perhaps the most significant musical
---
artist to have emerged in the 80's. Unfortunately, her previous
album, The Dreaming, initially was not well-received in her
--- --------
homeland, England. It was an artistic break-through, but at the
time was not recognized as such by most of the narrow-minded
British music press or by much of the record-buying public.
Ironically, in the U.S., where Kate Bush had been previously
pretty much ignored, The Dreaming received nearly unanimous
--- --------
critical adulation, though perhaps not inciting amazing record
sales.
Fortunately, her new album, Hounds of Love, has been
------ -- ----
received unbelievably well by the both the British and American
press. Out of dozens of reviews, I have only seen one negative
review, and most of the reviews are 5 star raves. It is also
selling incredibly well throughout the world, and including,
amazingly enough, the U.S.
These facts, and that she has one of the strongest and
perhaps the most dedicated cult following of any musical artist,
mean that in the near future she will probably become more widely
recognized as one of the most important forces in contemporary
music.
Why does she have such a dedicated cult following? What is
it about her music that stirs such passion in many listeners that
her fans have spawned more fanzines and fan clubs than I can even
count? Well, being one of her biggest fans, I'm probably
somewhat qualified to comment.
I guess that to those whom she reaches, she touches deeply.
To those whom she reaches, her music takes them to another world
-- this world. This world viewed through Kate-colored glasses.
An escape from reality into reality. Where one is shown the
beauty of ugliness and the ugliness of beauty. A world where
estranged lovers settle their differences by transforming into
mules. Where electronic swallows and blackbirds swoop and dive
through the recesses of the inner mind. Where hounds attack to
tear you apart with love and witches try themselves. Where Irish
jigs and Greek fire dance rhythms, and digital sonic landscapes,
and Aborigine and African drums, and flanged voices, and Tennyson
poems and movies about vampires are coherently aspects of One. A
world where always We Let The Weirdness In. A world where
frustration and pain are fundamental and essential, but where
there is always hope and love and joy. A world of infinite pain
and infinite pleasure. A mirror for all that is important in
life. Life itself!
Uh, hmmmm.... I'm sorry.... Perhaps I should just move on
to the interview. I interviewed Kate on the evening of November
20th. It is a summer day in the middle of November. 75 degrees
warm. A warm and unusual day to interview a warm and unusual
person. Kate has opened the window letting in the atmospheric
honks and roars of Manhattan traffic to add flavor to our
conversation.
I mumble something to Kate about Dali and her being my
favorite artists, and I give her a present of a record album:
Birdsongs of the Mesozoic's Magnetic Flip. She thanks me
-------- ----
sincerely. She is incredibly nice. Soon I remember that I have
only half an hour, and I manage to pile out my tape equipment,
connect up the microphones, and start the tape rolling.....
KATE: One, one, one, one, one, two, two, testing. Am I loud and
clear?
DOUG: That sounds pretty good.
KATE: Good!
[My microphone doesn't appear to be working, however....]
DOUG: I don't sound so good, though.... I don't matter -- I can
dub my voice in later.
KATE: [Laughs] Ask me completely different questions, eh?
[Laughs again.]
[I try to think of a witty reply, but my has brain has long
since ceased functioning, and instead I just mumble something
incoherent again. Kate makes an obscene throat-clearing noise --
a noise probably only possible for a smoker.
I flounder around for a few moments, but soon figure out
that my microphone isn't turned on....]
DOUG: Now I'm coming in!
KATE: Great!
DOUG: Okay... I guess I'm ready to start.
A song of yours for which the symbolism in the lyrics
really fascinates me is "There Goes A Tenner" [from The
---
Dreaming]. You've said that it is just a simple song about
--------
bank robbery, but the more I look at it, the more it seems
that nearly every line is really sort of an allusion to your
recording career at the the time you were recording The
---
Dreaming. You wouldn't deny that this was intended, would
--------
you?
KATE: Yes, I would deny it.
DOUG: You would?
KATE: Yes, it's very much a song about bank robbery. I wouldn't
say it was a simple song about bank robbery, but it's about
the fear that people feel rather than the glorification of
bank robbers.
DOUG: I dunno. It seems like... well, to me it seems every line
sort of could parallel your recording career. I won't go
and explain it, but like one example is "There Goes A
Tenner". "Tenner" could be a ten dollar bill -- it could
also be a level of singing: you know, like soprano, alto,
tenor. And sort of every line is like that. But you don't
-----
agree?
KATE: Well, no I don't because that's not... that was... nothing
that was in my head when I was writing it. But then I think
the interpretations that people have of your songs
afterwards are nothing to do with me anyway. I think it's
up to them to get what they can out of the song.
DOUG: Okay. That seems reasonable. Maybe it was all
subconscious. It seems so perfect to me. I dunno.
I read an interview where the interviewer asked you if
"Running Up That Hill" is about the contemplation of
suicide. And I thought that was pretty amusing, because it
seemed to me clearly not to about any such thing at all. On
the other hand, strangely enough, that's just what "Under
The Ivy" [the B-side to Kate's "Running Up That Hill"
single] seems to be about to me. The tone of the song is
very, very sad. And it seems to be about longing for the
lost innocence of youth -- perhaps a follow-up to "In Search
Of Peter Pan" [from Kate's second album "Lionheart"]. A
white rose is a strong image in the song. And it could be a
symbol for friendship or innocence, but it could also be a
symbol for death. You sing "Away from the party", and it
seems like you might almost mean "away from the problems and
triviality of modern day life". You sing "It wouldn't take
me long to tell you how to find it", and it seems like you
might almost be addressing Death itself. You mention a
secret, but never mention what it is. Could it be the taboo
subject of suicide?
What are your feelings about this interpretation, and
what were you intentions with the song?
KATE: Well, I think...uh, it... perhaps you are reading much more
into it than was originally intended when I wrote it. It's
very much a song about someone who is sneaking away from a
party to meet someone elusively, secretly, and to possibly
make love with them, or just to communicate, but it's
secret, and it's something they used to do and that they
won't be able to do again. It's about a nostalgic,
revisited moment.
DOUG: Is there any reason why it's so sad?
KATE: I think it's sad because it's about someone who is
recalling a moment when perhaps they used to do it when they
were innocent and when they were children, and it's
something that they're having to sneak away to do privately
now as adults.
DOUG: "My Lagan Love" [the bonus track on Kate's "Cloudbusting"
12-inch single] is another song of yours that seems very
sad. I looked up the word "lagan" in the dictionary, and it
means "cargo thrown into the sea attached to a buoy so that
it can be recovered later". But you use the word "Lagan" as
a name of someone, perhaps a deity. In any case, the
dictionary meaning seems to go well with the song, because
it seems in the song that your Lagan love has died. You
sing "Where Lagan's light fell on the hour/ I saw him far
below me/ Just as the morning calmed the storm/ With no one
there to hold him". This seems to conjure up the image of
looking down into a grave at your Lagan love. But perhaps
he will return again "when the sun and the moon meet on yon
hill," [Kate smiles] or whatever. Could you say more about
this song?
KATE: Yes, "My Lagan Love" is a traditional song that is one of
the most beautiful tunes I think exists in traditional
music. And throughout the years, people have used the song
and their own versions of the lyrics to it. The most famous
version of the song, I think, uses lyrics from a Keats poem.
I wanted to do a track that wouldn't be on the album,
that would go on the twelve inch, so that people that were
buying the album and the single had something extra that
didn't come off the album. And it seemed like a quick, easy
track to do, that would be unaccompanied -- a traditional
song.
DOUG: Did you agree with that meaning of the song, or what was
your intentions with the meaning of the lyrics?
KATE: I think the lyrics are really just a vehicle for the song.
I wanted to do the song and it had no traditional lyrics.
We had to find some to go with it, so we pulled together
some lyrics with my brothers and just put them to the music.
It wasn't something that I put a great deal of thought into
at all. [Tiny laugh.]
DOUG: Okay.
[It turns out that John Carder Bush, Kate's oldest brother,
wrote the lyrics Kate sings to "My Lagan Love". When I talked to
him about it, he said that the song is indeed about a woman's
lover who has died, and the lines quoted above do describe her
looking down into his grave. It is based on a story by James
Joyce called "The Dubliners". Lagan, it turns out, is a place in
-----
Ireland, and John was not aware of the dictionary meaning of the
word "lagan" before I mentioned it to him, but he said that the
dictionary meaning really is very appropriate for the song, and
was amused by this coincidence.]
DOUG: "Burning Bridge", the other song on your [Kate makes
another obscene throat clearing noise] "Cloudbusting"
single, seems to be a more desperate retelling to me of a
much earlier song of yours, "Passing Through Air". Could
you say something about "Burning Bridge"?
KATE: Umm, again it was a song that was totally created for a
B-side, and I knew that it was going on the other side of
"Cloudbusting". "Cloudbusting" is not necessarily an
up-tempo song and I feel that flips of records should be
something that counterbalances the energy of the other side.
So, I wanted something that was relatively up-tempo, and
just a fun song. I don't think the lyrics are by any means
profound, but it was something that I felt was fun to do and
was a very different energy from the A-side of the record.
DOUG: It's sort of... I don't know if it's incredibly... I mean
it's up-tempo, but it still has a sort of desperate sadness
to it, don't you think?
KATE: Actually, I think it's incredibly positive and quite
trivial.
DOUG: Okay. [Tiny laugh.]
KATE: [Tiny laugh.]
DOUG: On the song "Jig Of Life", you seem to hint that you are
planning on maybe having children. In an interview 6 or 7
years ago, I believe you said that you weren't planning on
having children, but that if you did it would mean the end
of your recording career. Have you changed your mind about
having children? And if so, would you really give up your
recording career?
KATE: I haven't changed my mind about having children, no. But
it's not necessarily something that I wouldn't change my
mind about at some point. "The Jig Of Life" is very much
about the visitation of the future. Your future self coming
to visit you to stop you dying -- to make sure you stay
alive. And the use of the mention of children is really to
use the image. In the future, apart from getting old, what
happens to people? They get married; they have kids. So
that's why it's being used -- purely as a poetical vehicle
of explaining the situation that time has passed between the
present and the future.
DOUG: But you don't necessarily see that happening to you, in
specific?
KATE: No I don't, no.
DOUG: I have a problem with big record companies, in that I don't
like to view Art as Big Business. Most large record
companies seem much more concerned with making money than
with encouraging art. But in order for many artists to make
enough money to record albums the way they want to, it's a
necessary thing to record for large record companies. And
in fact, many of my favorite artists do. What is your
opinion on the commercialization of art?
KATE: I think the purpose of a record company is to sell as many
records as they can, and that is their total main concern.
If something is successful, they are happy. If something is
artistically good, but is not successful, then they can't
really be prepared to follow that through. Their business
is not art -- it's money and selling records to make money.
I think that's part of the reason why the business is
so hard, because you're talking about two completely
different forces having to be integrated. Artistic people,
a lot of the time, don't have a good business sense, and a
lot of the time it's totally against everything they feel --
it's about money, commercialization, exploitation. It's not
anything to do with a creative spirit, which deals in
sensitivity and observation of people, emotions. They're
two completely different forces. And I think to survive in
this business, you have to be realistic, and if music is
what matters to you, there's a certain amount of business
that you have to be involved in in order to be able to keep
making music.
So, I think for me, the way I cope with it, is to try
and keep a realistic balance between the things I like and
don't like doing. I have to do things I don't like in order
to make sure my work will survive.
DOUG: Sounds like a good answer to me....
I think the The Dreaming is just about as good an album
--- --------
as any ever recorded, but unfortunately, it wasn't much of a
commercial success compared to your other albums. Was The
---
Dreaming financially successful enough so that if all your
--------
records were only that successful, you'd still be able to
continue making records the way you want to?
KATE: That's a very difficult question. I don't know. I think
as long as an album is relatively successful, then you can
afford to make another one. I think also, the thing about
records is that they don't necessarily stop selling after a
year of being released. I think it's possible that The
---
Dreaming could continue to sell more than the others in the
--------
future...
DOUG: Sure hope so! [Wait.... I didn't mean to say that that
way....]
KATE: ...and that that might be the one that keeps me in my old
age. [Small laugh.] It's very difficult to say, and I
think all I do really is put out the best I can, and hope
people like it. And if I've done the best I can, then
there's nothing more I can do.
DOUG: One can't help but notice that the first three songs on
your new album, though quite excellent indeed, have a
distinctly more "commercial pop" sound to them than anything
on The Dreaming. Was this to help make the album sell
--- --------
better than The Dreaming, or did you feel it artistically
--- --------
important to make some music that might be more accessible
to more people, or did it just come sort of come out that
way?
KATE: I don't feel that it is that much more obviously
commercial. I mean, I think from what people say, they feel
that it is, but for me they are very similar energies. They
are just trying to create as interesting a song as possible
with the best production to accompany it. And to make it
different. And I think what makes it more accessible for
people is the consistency of rhythm. I can't really see
that much difference... apart from how different songs are
anyway from each other.
DOUG: Well, did you think to yourself "Well, if I use a
consistency of rhythm that it will be more accessible to
more people" when you went about writing the song, or did
you...
KATE: No...
DOUG: ...just want to do that?
KATE: Well, I write a song because it's what I like at the time.
On the last album [The Dreaming] I was beginning to get very
---- ---------
intrigued with the use of rhythm. I really like using
rhythm, and I think this album is a progression of how I've
learned to work with it.
DOUG: Your song "Breathing" seems to be written from the point of
view of a fetus about to be born into a post-holocaust
world. One might think from this and from your being a
vegetarian, that you would be opposed to abortion. What are
you feelings on the morality and legality of abortion?
KATE: I think that is a very difficult subject and something
that's far too easy to generalize about. But I think that
life is something that should be respected and honored even
in a few hours of its conception.
DOUG: Do you think that abortion should be illegal?
KATE: I don't feel that I want to comment on that.
DOUG: Okay....
When I first heard the title of your new album Hounds
------
of Love, a long time before the album was actually released,
-- ----
it seemed to me like a reference to fans. It sort of
conjured up the image of The Beatles constantly being
hounded by their adoring fans, who would attack them,
because each fan wanted a little piece of their idols. So
the title "Hounds of Love" seems to hint at a love/hate
relationship with fans. The Love/Hate relationship also
seems to be symbolized on the picture sleeve to "Running Up
That Hill", where you are aiming a bow that could be Cupid's
bow, but is also a deadly weapon. Did you have these things
in mind?
KATE: No, I'd like to say straight away it's absolutely nothing
to do with a love/hate relationship with fans and, in fact,
that, as far as I am concerned, is something that doesn't
exist. I have no resentment or dislike for any of the
people that like my music, at all. If anything, it's a
great honor for me that such nice people are attracted by
the music. And that song has nothing to do with fans --
it's about love -- it's about someone who's afraid of being
captured by love, and it's seeing love as a pack of hounds
that's coming to get them. [Doesn't remind me of fans, at
all....] As something that they're frightened of -- not
willing to accept.
DOUG: Well, I would sort of maintain that any love relationship
is a love/hate relationship, in that...
KATE: Yes...
DOUG: ... there are always problems that come along with...
KATE: I would totally agree, but it's got nothing to do with my
fans.
DOUG: Okay....
In the song "Hounds of Love", what do you mean by the
line "I'll be two steps on the water", other than a way of
throwing off the scent of hounds, or whatever, by running
through water... but why "two steps"?
KATE: Because two steps is a progression. One step could
possibly mean you go forward and then you come back again.
I think "two steps" suggests that you intend to go forward.
DOUG: But why not "three steps"? [Giggle.]
KATE: It could have been three steps -- it could have been ten,
but "two steps" sounds better, I thought, when I wrote the
song.
DOUG: Okay. [Grin.]
-------
You've said elsewhere that "Jig of Life" was inspired
by a Greek ceremony. Could you describe this ceremony and
say how it appears in the song?
KATE: My brother [Paddy Bush] discovered a piece of music that
was used in a Greek religious ceremony, where people worked
themselves into a trance state through the hypnotic quality
of the music and then begin to walk on fire. The piece of
music is incredible and has a very hypnotic rhythm. And it
was the piece of music that I then used to base the song
upon. The inspiration was totally a musical one and a
rhythmic one.
DOUG: Did you write the poem that is narrated at the end of "Jig
Of Life"?
KATE: No, I didn't. My brother [John Carder Bush] wrote that.
DOUG: That's what some of us thought. It seemed like a slightly
different style. It seemed more like his style -- from what
people have been able to infer of his style without seeing
much of his poetry.
It's a really wonderful poem.
KATE: It is.
DOUG: So, tell him I like it. [Small laugh.]
I find the use of strong symbolism and metaphor and
allusions in your lyrics to be extremely interesting. For
example, in "Get Out Of My House", the woman who is singing
the song has been left by her lover and feels hurt, and
identifies herself with a house. This is a biblical
allusion. When she says "I wash the panes", it is a triple
entendre, because she's saying she's washing the windows of
her body, which are the eyes. This means she's crying, and
by doing so, she's washing the hurt and pain away. Then she
----
says "No stranger's feet will enter me" saying that she
won't let anyone into her house, which is saying she won't
let anyone into her body, which is also reinforced by the
biblical use of "feet" as a euphemism for "private parts".
The layers of meaning here, are pretty incredible.
Then a man tries to enter her life again, but she's too
scared, and she tries to escape by flying away, but he turns
into the wind. She then turns into a mule, perhaps for its
stubborn ability to withstand the wind. And then he also
turns into a mule. Now it seems that they have a ground for
communication. Because mules are neuter, and they can
communicate on a platonic level rather than a sexual level.
Now a friend of mine believes that this last part is a
flaw in the song, because mules are not really neuter after
all. They are only sterile. Personally, I think it isn't a
flaw because the idea comes across loud and clear to me, and
somehow it seems that "I change into the amoeba. Ooze.
Ooze." just wouldn't work so well. So the question is,
what do you think of this interpretation? And could you
respond to my friend's slight criticism?
KATE: And what was your friend's criticism?
["You want my reply? What was the question?" Oh dear, I've
bored Kate to death....]
DOUG: He said that the ending is a flaw because mules are not
really neuter, they are only sterile.
KATE: What does he mean?
DOUG: Well, it seems to me -- and to him -- that the end of the
song is sort of a positive note because they've found a
grounds for communication. And sort of on a platonic level,
because mules might be seen as being platonic, because....
KATE: Why? [In an intrigued tone of voice.]
DOUG: Oh... well... [Doug turns eight shades of red...] mules
are sterile... uh... a donkey and a horse... you know...
have a sexual relationship, and then they have mules, and
mules don't have children, but they really can have sex.
They just can't have children, but a lot of people actually
think that they just don't have sex. Which isn't really
true.
KATE: Right! [Little laugh.] Well, uh, [in an amused and puzzled
tone of voice] I think you... it's kind of weird the level
-----
of interpretation that you are reading into things,
because... I mean, a mule -- in our country -- all it
represents is a stupid animal. They are considered stupid.
------
And that's the allusion that was being used in that case.
And it's very much a play on a traditional song called "The
Two Magicians" about someone who's trying to escape someone,
and they keep changing their form in order to escape them.
But the other thing keeps changing its form. And that's
actually what the whole song is about -- someone who is
running away from something they don't want to face, but
wherever they go, the thing will follow them. Basically,
you can't run away from things -- you've got to confront
things. And it's using the person as the imagery of a
house, where they won't let anyone in, they lock all the
doors and windows, and put a guard on the front door. But I
think the essence of the song is about someone trying to run
away from things they don't like and not being able to
escape -- because you can't.
DOUG: But if the symbol of mules is just stupidity, at the end,
then it would seem like it would be a negative ending, and
it just sort of seems to me, most of your songs... a lot of
them... end on up notes. And it sort of seemed like it was
a positive note at the end.
KATE: Yes, I think the mule is that kind of... the stupid
------
confrontation... I mean, there's not really that much to
read into it. It was the idea of playing around with
changing shape, and the mule imagery was something I liked
ordurely. The whole thing of this wild, stupid, mad
---- ------ ---
creature just turning around and going, you know, eeyore,
eeyore [Kate makes convincing eeyore sounds].
I don't know if you saw Pinoccio, but there's an
--------
incredibly heavy scene in there, where one of the little
boys turns into a donkey -- a mule. And it's very heavy
stuff.
DOUG: I haven't seen that since about six [which is at least a
year or two ago...] , but I think I remember that...
it's a strong image.
KATE: Well, maybe you should see it again. It's a good film.
DOUG: In a recent interview you said "I don't really know why
people think my songs are strange." I'm not sure that this
was said by the same person who sings "We let the weirdness
in" at the end of the song "Leave It Open". In any case,
what is really strange about the singing at the end of
"Leave It Open", is that if you play it backwards, it also
sounds like intelligible singing. In fact, it sounds to me
like "And they said they wouldn't let me in", which is
wonderful because then it has the opposite meaning backwards
as it does forwards.
There is also something like this on Hounds of Love in
------ -- ----
the song "Watching You Without Me". There is one part where
you sing what to me sounds like "Really see" repeated
several times. And if you play this backwards, it sounds
exactly the same. Still like "Really see", though I'm not
sure it's "Really see" -- it just sounds like that to me.
But whatever it sounds like, it sounds exactly the same
backwards. Well, the question is, I'd be really interested
in knowing how you did this sort of manipulation.
KATE: Well, that's something I've been experimenting with for a
while, and would like to continue experimenting. It's just
a way of using backwards ideas, but actually saying
something cohesively.
DOUG: But how do you actually get a message or singing which
sounds like something both forwards and backwards. And what
are the technical issues involved. I mean, it seems like it
would be really hard to do.
KATE: It is. It's very difficult -- it takes a lot of time and
an awful lot of patience.
[Kate is saved by the bell, as her brother is at the
door, and my half hour is up. I talked to both of Kate's
brothers sometime later, however, and neither had any qualms
about giving away the secret of the two-way messages. It
involves listening to singing played backwards on a tape deck,
learning to sing the backwards sounds, and then recording that
strange singing backwards.
In any case, Kate agrees to answer a couple more
questions....]
DOUG: Of your albums, which one is your favorite?
KATE: Ummm... I think the last album you do is always the one
that's closest to you because you've just spent the nearest
part of your life to it, but I think for artistic
fulfillment, I think The Dreaming was certainly quite
--- --------
rewarding to have actually achieved some of the things that
we set out to do. [Doug can't agree more.] But you have
very much a strange relationship -- I don't know if you
really like anything you do.
DOUG: Well... I like it a lot, so...
KATE: Good! [Laughs.]
DOUG: Before we end the interview, one more quick question --
what do you feed your cats?
KATE: Ummm... food, normally.
DOUG: What kind of food?
KATE: Tinned food... and fish. Fiiiishy wiiiishy!
[Very! But I won't say anything.
("Watching the storm start to form over America".) Several
hours later, at home, I turn on the TV news and hear that
hurricane Kate has just hit Florida. But I was blown away years
ago by a more Gael-ic Kate.]