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Newsgroups: rec.music.gaffa
Path: asarian.org!vickie
From: vickie@asarian.org (Babooshka)
Subject: A Woman With A View (Re: New Idea)
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References: <950208.083035.EST.KAL93003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>
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Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 20:12:14 GMT
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  (my other account seems to be weirded out at the moment)

This is long, but it's not too hot a flame.  I'm just airing my views
about various of the topics raised in the recent debates.  Some has
to do with Kate UConn directly, and other parts are just general thoughts 
and opinions.  All my very own, (n)ever so humble opinions.

If "you" (meaning anybody) aren't interested or find it boring, "n" or
"k" or many rapid pushes of the space bar can help you get rid of me
and be happy. Just don't *not* read it and then claim to be a "well-
informed feminist."  Please.  I might have a heart attack from laughing
too hard, and you wouldn't want my death on your hands, now would you?

:-)



Kate (KAL93003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu) wrote:

: Gee, isn't nice that all these big strong guys (I tried, really tried, to
: write "men" but I was laughing too hard) can tell us how we women should
: see ourselves and feminism ("I know feminists, I've talked to feminists,
: and YOU BITCH are NO feminist!") -- but frankly I don't care.

Well, I care, and what I care about is that you seem to be the very type
of person who gives feminism a bad name.

What would you say if someone wrote "isn't it nice that all these big
strong dolls (I tried, really tried, to write "women" but I was laughing
too hard) can tell us how we men should see women and feminism..."???

Condescending?  Sexist?  Unfair?  Degrading?  Yep.  Yet, why is it ok for 
*you* to say it when you would scream bloody murder if a man reversed
the gender and said the same thing?  Patronizing attitudes are as
disgusting coming from women as they are coming from men.

Your automatically dismissing what |>oug, Chris and Aaron had to say
simply because they have dangly things in their shorts is as bad as
any man who dismisses what a woman has to say because she doesn't.


So, hey, to balance the scales a little, since you're not interested in
hearing the points-of-view of the men who posted:

I'm a WOMAN.  I'm a FEMINIST.  I'm a sexual abuse & rape survivor.  I've
been married and divorced.  I have a 21-year son who is intelligent and
enlightened and tired of being bashed for his gender (and race and sexual
orientation).  I want equality for him, and for his sons and daughters, and
their sons and daughters, and so on.  I base my feminism on that.

I've been around the feminist circuit.  I've gone to meetings, supported 
NOW, had an all-female vocals radio show, and worked clinic defense.
 
I've been exposed to my share of sexism in the workplace.  I've worked in 
"traditionally female" jobs (secretary, receptionist, waitress, laundry,
hotel housekeeping), and I've worked in "traditionally male" jobs (I was a
big rig truck driver and hauled everything from beef slabs to gravel; I was
a busboy--I do believe I was the first female busboy in Hilton Hotel coffee
shop history, but don't quote me on that....whoopie anyway, like it really
matters.  A much more interesting (to me) boost for feminism came months
later, when I had to sue the Hilton to get them to let me change jobs
and be a "houseboy" because they said there'd never been a female houseboy
and they didn't want to "set a precedent."  I wanted to see if I could
legally get them to set that precedent) so yeah, I've lived a true-life
feminist reality, and I certainly think I have a right to call myself
a feminist.  I'm proud to do it too, but it sure is hard sometimes.
Because of the stereotypes.  Stereotypes based on a definite minority.
Stereotypes like the ones you, Kate, perpetuate by your post.  


I faced sexism all the time as a truck driver, by male truck drivers,
yet I don't think all (or even most) male truck drivers are sexists.  
I don't think all (or even most) men are sexist.  

Some men are sexist.  Some *women* are sexist.

It was a *female* department head who turned down my application to be
a houseboy (those are the folks who set up meeting rooms and banquet
halls at convention hotels) and was silly enough to say what she said,
which sent me directly, that very day, to Legal Aid to file a complaint.
Which I won.

I've been raped and sexually abused by men, yet I don't think all (or 
even most) men are (or are potential) rapists and sexual abusers.  I blame
the men who abused me, not the entire male species.

I don't think Playboy is pornography.  I have no problem with most
things that *are* considered pornography and if whatever it is features
consenting adults, I don't even think it should be labled pornography.

I think that the word should be reserved for illegal (and rightly so) XXX
such as child pornography.  But, the word is generally used, so I do use it 
in the general sometimes, though I really  prefer "Adult Entertainment" for
any type of of sexually oriented material featuring consenting adults.

I definitely don't think AE/pornography itself is responsible for causing
or contributing to rape and sexual abuse.  Women rape and sexually abuse
too, and nobody ever says it was because they read Playboy or watched 
"Debbie Does Dallas."  Ted Bundy tried to blame porno for his deviant 
nature, but the police who arrested him found cheerleading magazines
alongside the X-magazines found in his car.  Funny, the Moral Majority
never called to put an end to publishing cheerleading magazines.  And
what about Victoria's Secret catalogs, Calvin Klein ads and Sears and
Roebuck catalogs (supposedly a favorite among pedophiles who collect
child porno)?  In a deviant's mind, *anything* can become "pornography"
and anything, or nothing, can set them off.  There were rapists and
child molesters in the days before printed and moving pictures.  There
were rapists and child molesters before there were even printing presses.

I believe the perception that there are more sex crimes nowadays is
false.  Sure, there are a lot of them, but 1) the population is much higher,
and everything increases in relation to the population, and 2) the rate
of *reported* sex crimes has gradually gotten higher.  It's gradually
(though there's still a long way to go) gotten easier for victims to
report rapes, molestations, child sexual abuse, sexual harrassment and
other sex crimes.  Sex crimes are the most secret of crimes, unless blatent
violence and/or other witnesses are involved.  Victims hide sex crimes
for lots of reasons.  Threats by the perpetrator, fear of being dis-
believed, no or little physical evidence, undeserved shame and not
thinking it's "important enough" are among those reasons.  Sex crimes 
are the least reported crimes, yet courageous men and women, children
and adults, have come forward in more numbers than in the past.  That's
why the statistics are higher, not because there are more deviants
now because of pornography.
  
To drive the point home even more that I've thought long and hard about 
this, and that I can speak as someone who has experience with both
"pornography" (my definition, as illegal and deviant) and Adult Entertain-
ment, here are two sides of the coin:

I was sexually molested between the ages of 2 and 5 by an adult male
neighbor/babysitter.  He was into child pornography, and my brother and I
both were his "models."  The abuse ended when my mom found out about it.
She never turned him in, she never even told my father.  She was ashamed
for us (that's my theory) and I don't even think she realized that we were
totally blameless, that we didn't know what we were doing or that what we
were doing was wrong, and that *he* was one sick bastard.  All she did was 
tell the guy to move immediately, which he did, and tell me to forget about 
it, which I didn't.  I didn't forget about it, but I kept his (and her)
secret, and I never told anyone until a couple of years ago.  I'm 38 years
old.  The man was never punished (and never will be punished, unfortunately)
for what he did to my brother and me, and for all I know he's still free,
out there somewhere still preying on young children, and he might still 
have the pictures of us.  

Needless to say, I'm vehemently anti-child pornography.  There's nothing
I'd like better than to see that guy hang by his pedophile balls.  That'll
never happen, but it's nice to think about every now and then.

Why am I bringing this very personal bit of information up?  For one, I
intensely dislike stereotypes, such as that people who are sexually abused
are always, anti-all pornography.  The stereotype that women (those not
working in and making money directly from the Adult industry) are always
anti-all pornography.  The stereotype that all Feminists are always
anti-all pornography (well, except lesbian "erotica", of course, which 
*seems* to be perfectly ok to those who would burn male/female X) and
the stereotype that it's only men who speak up to defend sexually
oriented material (and rant against pro-censorship feminists).
  
For another, because...

Because, I *KNOW THE DIFFERENCE* between the evils of child porno and
sexually oriented entertainment involving consenting adults.  Women
who want to ban or even just restrict Adult Entertainment are pro-
censorship.  There's no way around it, and there's no way to pretty
it up.  

I'm vehemently anti-censorship, no matter where it comes from.  As far as
I'm concerned, radical feminists are as misguided and dangerous as the
ultra-conservative Right when it comes to censoring adult sexually-oriented
material.  I don't want someone telling me I can't (or even that I shouldn't)
read Playboy or watch an X-rated video, or read erotica, or have fantasies
involving Martians and H.G. Wells if that's what I feel like doing, and
it doesn't matter if it's Jerry Fallwell or Andrea Dworkin telling me
such things.


One of the most interesting jobs I ever had was in the offices of an
X-rated theater doing data entry/bookkeeping.  I was also responsible
for selecting and ordering X-rated videos which were sold in the video
stores that the fella who owned the theater also owned.  It wasn't a
big deal, and I didn't think anything about it.  At one point, the
theater was short-handed and I needed to fill in for the spotlight
operator during the live dances.  (Stripper shows, which were scheduled
between films).  I got to know all the dancers, and I never got the
impression that any of them were oppressed.  They were natural exhibi-
tionists, who were making good money for work that wasn't very hard
and that hurt no one, least of all themselves.  Many of them would
call themselves feminists, and wouldn't appreciate men *or* women 
telling them what they should or shouldn't be doing with their bodies.
(Btw, lots of them also had decent taste in music, and I passed around
tapes endlessly.  My tapes, which included Kate, Peter Gabriel, Dave 
Stewart & Barbara Gaskin and the Cocteau Twins, got danced to, and it 
was a lot of fun to see and hear).

I'm an Egalitarian.  I'm pro-sexuality.  


I can't believe you (Kate at UConn) said:

:  ("I know feminists, I've talked to feminists,
: and YOU BITCH are NO feminist!")

I highly resent and am angered by your blatent mis-quoting and 
mis-representing what was said and meant in previous posts (it
seems as if you were targeting |>oug, though I'm not sure.)

No one called anyone a BITCH or even came anywhere near to implying
such a thing.  Unless you can come up with direct quotes, including
attributions and dates so that the "YOU BITCH" article can be verified
from the archives, consider this a flame.  It was *wrong* and you
probably know it.

I agree nearly 100% with the *MEN* who have posted...|>oug, Aaron, Chris,
and I'm proud of their enlightened, intelligent and interesting posts is
this thread.  None of them deserved to be portrayed as you portray them
in one lousy sentence.

People like *YOU* are why I and others like me have had a hard time 
justifying calling ourselves feminists.  You and others like you have 
thoughtlessly ruined the word, the meaning, the message, and the point 
of being a feminist.  It's about equality of the sexes wrt respect and 
benefits, not separatism and hate-mongering.

I used to not call myself a feminist because of people like you.  Well,
perhaps KB felt the same way and didn't want to be lumped in with such
attitudes.  Of course, I can't speak for Kate, but I can speak for 
myself, and frankly, personally, I want the word BACK.

I'm a FEMINIST.  I'm pro-rights, pro-choice, pro-equal opportunity, pro-
sexuality, pro-male, pro-female, pro-family, and pro-equality.  I dislike
censorhip in the name of "decency" and I dislike censorship in the name of
"sexism" and I especially dislike situations when men *and* women tell
us how we women should see ourselves and feminism.  And I mean you and
Jonathan Forward and women's magazines and ad agencys and radical fem-
inists like Andrea Dworkin, not humanists like |>oug, Chris and Aaron.  

I have no problems with Playboy.  I do have problems with Vogue, Glamour,
Seventeen, Sassy, McCalls, Redbook, Women's Day, Cosmo and all the other
brain-damaged women's magazines who continually go on and on and on, 
year after year, about makeup, diets, fashion tips, hairstyling tips,
dating tips, and that 99.9% of the time feature girls and women models
who are dieted down, made up, dressed up, dolled up and bimboed up...hair-
brushed and airbrushed.

They're the magazines (and girls who were brainwashed by them) that helped 
make me hate myself, not Playboy or sexist men.  I hated my body, I hated 
my looks, I hated my hair, I hated just about everything about myself when
I was growing up.

It took the love of caring, intelligent, enlightened, non-sexist and 
non-judgemental men, who loved (ex-husband) / loves (love 'o' my life for 
13 years) me for myself and didn't reject me because I didn't/don't fit 
society's standards of what I'm "supposed" to be and look like, to make
me feel better about myself.
 
I shouldn't have had to rely on men to build my self-esteem, but it was
usually women (and girls at school) who, along with their stupid magazines
(none of which ever made me feel that it was ok to be me, that I was ok
the way I was), were mostly responsible for making me feel bad about myself.
  
Btw, my love reads Playboy.  And, btw, I read it too.  The articles *are*
good.

For every sexist locker-room mentality male moron, there's an equally 
damaging petty, spiteful, catty, shallow, and cruel female.  I don't
know what it's like in other countries, but in the USA the Grade Schools,
Jr. High Schools and High Schools are breeding grounds for sexist and
petty thoughts, attitudes and actions by boys *and* girls against girls
*and* boys.  These attitudes are planted and reinforced in lots of various
ways *years* before Playboy comes into their lives, as either something to
read or something to bash.

There are bad men and bad women.  There are good men and good women. 
People are people, and should be treated as individuals, and not by the
presence or absence of 'balls & boobs'.  It's certainly as possible for
a man to read Playboy and not be a slobbering sexist as it is for a
woman to be a feminist and not be a slobbering man-hater.


Perhaps you should consider thinking for yourself, and consider giving up
sounding like a walking, talking stereotype.  It doesn't have to mean
that you like (or even accept) Playboy, or X-rated movies.  It could 
mean that you come to realize that there are lots of different points-of-
view, and that not everything is black and white, and that not all men who
say things you disagree with are undeserving of being called men and don't
deserve your reading and considering what they have to say.  It could
mean that you will be able to make a point without putting fabricated 
sexist quotes into the mouths of men who see things differently than you.



:  Any one with a little positive energy out there?

I see you're also a hypocrite, to say such a thing after your first 
paragraph.  You can't use the appropriate word "men" to describe 3
highly intelligent, highly moral, and highly enlightened posters,
and you twist their interesting thoughts and ideas into a bogus
"yo BITCH" argument.

Positive?  You're asking for positive energy?  Yeah, right.  Sorry,
but your post was the straw that broke the camel's back and made
me come out of self-imposed lurkdom, at the risk of being pegged
yet again as someone who'll jump into any flame war.  With Jonathan
Forward out of the thread, it was actually an interesting and
thought-provoking dialogue.  Not a flame war, not a name-calling
contest, not even a major conflict.

One short paragraph, and you made the whole thing disintegrate into
a boring old no-brain flame.  I believe you have a brain.  Use it.

Perhaps no other women here feel as I do.  Perhaps there are other
women who agree with me, but don't want to get involved.  Either way,
I've given the point-of-view of *a* woman...me, and I'm not afraid
to speak what I consider to be my feminist, realist, egalitarian, 
open mind.


: Kate, The Feminist (aka Bitch and proud of it)

Vickie, The Feminist (aka Bitch on Wheels, sometimes, and not proud of 
      it, but I won't back down in the face of what I consider to be an 
      injustice, no matter what people think of me)


"This house is full of, full of, full of fight"  KB

"I thought this was a Kate Bush board/forum/folder/newsgroup/mailing
list.  I didn't come here to read about pornography, sex or feminism.
Let's talk about Kate.  Can't we all just get along? I just hate these
flame wars.  Where's the nice gaffa that used to be?  I'm new, do you
guys bicker all the time like this?  Why is it Chris and Vickie are always
the ones at the center of all the flame wars?  Don't you guys have
anything better to do?  Get a life.  This is wasting my time and filling
up my mailbox/news spool.  Why do we have these debates over and over 
again?  I got tired of it the last time.  Why do Vickie and Chris always
seem to jump on new posters/bies?  Can't we respect each other's
opinions and let it drop?  This is gaffa, not alt.flame.feminism or
alt.flame.pornography.  I missed the start of this thread.  What's going 
on?  I haven't read this thread since the beginning and I can't believe
that it's still going on.  If you don't like other's opinions, you should
just unsubscribe.  Vickie, what a bore you are, going on pages and pages.
What would Kate say about all this fighting?  I sure hope she doesn't
read this group.  What is gaffa?  I have Kate items for sale.  Peace."


 (Courtesy of the rec.music.gaffa/Love-Hounds "Psychic Friends Network")