Re: Tori, etc. (was: None.)

[brownfld@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (Kenneth R Brownfield)]

The following piece was composed and performed by Boris Chen:
|In article <66774@apple.Apple.COM> katrina_michael@muwayf.unimelb.edu.au (Katrina Michael) writes:
|>I'm not a regular subscriber to the newsgroup, but I have been reading the
|>reports of Tori Amos with interest, and will probably buy her CD. In reply to
|>Melissa Caldwell's message:

|I hope this doesn't mean that you've never listened to TA's songs. One can't
|make a good assessment of someone's music by descriptions by others.

     True, but unfortunate for my wallet and fortunate for me, the reviews of
music in this group have very much paralleled my own tastes.  It may not always
be the case, but I listen to the folks here more than anywhere else, and have
almost always been pleased in the end.

[...]
|>repressed, and that's very sad, but I can't  believe that she has 'overcome'
|>this while a huge 'web' of bitterness still covers her work.
|
|Though I haven't seen her in concert, so I can't say anything about her
|reported "man hating." From her album itself, I don't think bitter is
|a good word to describe the statements she is making. I think her songs
|express melencholy, pensiveness, sadness and mourning, and anger
|at how she's been treated. Bitterness comes through at points, but
|I can't see how it's a "huge 'web'." It basically, seems that she
|says a lot of "It's terrible the way you treat me," "you" being
|applied to various people. That seems more an expression of
|frustration and pain, not bitterness. Of course, this pain can
|lead to bitterness, but though she walks a fine line, on the
|whole, it seems that the lack of bitterness despite the painful
|experiences is what comes noticably across.

     That's how her music comes across to me, too.  She's bitter here and
there, but it seems mostly that she was frustrated with what was happening
in her life, or in the world for that matter, and finally broke through the
hesitation to speak out about her various feelings.  What Melissa said about
how girls are brought up in this society fits well, although being male I'm
not quite the expert to say if what Melissa said was indeed true.

|>>I also believe that we tend not to see Kate as a real person.  I agree;
|>>Kate's music is beautifully emotional, but she doesn't really show us who
|>>she is.

|>Again, I disagree.  Kate, to me, _is_ a real person.  She's the friend that
|....
|>different personas, but it is left to you to make that imagery work.  That's
|>why she's special.

     True, that _is_ why she's special.  But because the interpretation of
Catherine Bush's persona is left up to the listener, that persona is all the
more a mild fantasy.  The persona we would infer from her music most probably
differs from Kate's true self markedly.  Tori doesn't have the skill or intent
to veil herself, she's just putting emotions down, and the thoughts that
sparked those emotions.  Kate's music isn't as basic.

|The perception of a persons "realness" (I know this sounds terrible,
|but I lack a better word), is of course, as in most subjective assessments,
|a relative one. In this case, we're comparing Kate to Tori, and I think
|Melissa makes a good point in how, compared to Tori, Kate as a person
|is not as "present" in her music as Tori is. Tori's music is in some
|ways anecdotal, whereas Kate uses, as you say  a lot of imagery and
|her personas. You can find instances of both Tori and Kate using both
            ^
            ~-- Yes, plural, exactly.

|imagery and personal happenings, or psuedo-narritives, that's apparent,
|but based on this album of Tori's (for I have no other)  and on all
|I've heard of Kate (which is quite a lot), I'd say that Kate's
|person takes a back seat to her creation, whereas Tori's person is
|mounted on it like a hood ornament. not saying that either is bad,
|just a different approach and indicative or each artist's different
|approach to what they create.

     Tori's person and what that person feels is why 1) the music is very
accurately reflective of her personality and generally who she is, and 2)
the music has a lot emotional impact on everyone who listens.  Kate's music
most times has more emotional impact on me than Tori's work, but the driving
force for _all_ of Tori's music on _Little Earthquakes_ is emotions.  They
are indeed very different approaches, and both are exceptional.

|>>Tori's work _is_ more direct and confrontational.  In some ways it is more
|>>courageous.  IMHO, she writes the truth, and sometimes truth makes us
|>>uncomfortable.  She definitely has an attitude, but it's the attitude of a
|>>strong, independent woman.

     The level of courage is up for a tad of debate, but I agree overall.

|>I don't like being 'hit in the face' with lyrics.  Being direct has nothing
|>at all to do with courage - it is more courageous to deal with your demons 
|>than to tell everyone about them.

     Very good point about directness.

|>I would much rather sort through the clues in lyrics and decide for myself.

     Hmm.  I think you may be contradicting yourself on a theoretical level
here.  Sorting it out for yourself adds a fantasy and mysticism to music, but
there are some things in this world (a great lot of things, actually) that
are not fantastical, not mystical, just plain direct, face-hitting facts.
Not dealing with the direct things in this world doesn't fall under the
courageous definition you expressed, although that may not have been your
intention.
     My main requirement in lyrics is to invoke emotions inside me.  I don't
care if it's love, hate, fear, despair, horror, whatever.  That's why I
listen to music.  Some lyrics are straight-forward and unkind, which invokes
fear, or shock.  All the better for me.  Restricting my musical tastes to
a certain criteria other than that always seemed hypocritical and un-
productive to me.

|>Sorry, but it's the attitude of a bitter woman.

     A frustrated woman who finally had to say what she was feeling.  Bitter
yes, but I'm not convinced that it was a bitter woman singing.  I think it
was a frustrated woman breaking through and expressing her emotions, some
emotions among the mass happening to be bitterness.  Not _much_ different, I
admit.
     I like Tori's music because of the outpouring of "_true_" emotions, not
because of specific vocal or musical prowess, which I find only slightly above
average.  IMHO folks, I'm not giving her zero stars or something.

|Though many things in Tori's music is obvious to its meaning, I don't think
|it can be said that her music is obvious (or that her lyrics are "hit in the
|face"). Cryptic is not analogous to brilliance. 

     Cryptic is indeed not analagous to brilliance.  But neither,
necessarily, is directness.  Her music _is_ obvious, not in a prude way, but
because that was her intent.  I agree that she's not just saying "I hate X, Y,
and Z," but she isn't winding a web of intrigue and mystery either.  Her
directness is what makes Tori's music unique and worth listening too, but she
_is_ being direct, and in some limited ways, obvious.

|	As for being direct, perhaps expressing ones problems and sharing
|them with others is a means of dealing with them.

     True.  Psychiatrists do more listening and simple linking of events to
emotions for a person that can't see them than anything else.  I don't think
expressing her problems and emotions to millions over a CD fits very well into
the self-help category.  If that's what she's doing, I wouldn't feel as
strongly towards the music.  The discussion of courage comes up again here.

|>>It will be interesting to see if this was just a "stage" that she was in
|>>or if her work will always have this tone.
|>Let's hope not.

|I think that art is generally indicative of the society from which
|it is created from, and thus, as long as the world has this "tone,"
|I'd suppose that most art, and Tori as well, will have this "tone,"
|the "tone" of sorrow, regret, and disappointment resulting from
|injustices wrought on people.

     Urk.
     The world will reflect the vision of its population.  If we think this
world is full of sorrow, regret, etc., it _will_ be full of sorrow, regret,
etc..  She is not reflecting the condition of the world, although she _is_
reflecting certain limited aspects of the world that she has experienced.
     If she continues with the same tone it will be because she either
continues to feel that same way, or she decides to express some other aspects
of her life, influenced by the world or no.
     Ignoring the infinite plethora of other aspects of life is really
silly.  There is grit in this world, and it's welcome.  A world without grit,
or a world without joy and happiness as a counterpoint would both be the
proverbial world not worth living in.

|My review of the album, as you can probably gather, is favorable. 
|Her lyrics seem to carry with them a literary finesse (sp), and
|the music has a lyrical, and beautifully fluid range from a
|deep melencholy, to joyous playfulness. And eventhough her music
|sounds erratic to Philistines (as expressed by that one buffoon of a
|reviewer), people with more than 1/2 a brain can see the beauty
|of her stylistically diverse gamut, and her skill in combining
|them in a artistically balanced expression. :-)

     Sarcasm through and through?
     My review?  Favorable, too.  It breaks no laws, nor does it break new
ground, but what it does express is true emotion, something that is rare
in music.  A great voice, lyrics that, sometimes even through startling
subtlety, express her not so subtle emotions, and nice instrumentation that
does the same (the beginning of _Mother_, for instance) make it a very nice
album.
     Compare her to other artists such as Kate, and the only objective
aspect of Tori's music that is remarkable is emotion.
     Which is plenty good enough for me.

     Not to bring up another Happy-like traffic flame war, but there now
exists a Tori Amos mailing list.  The traffic has been pretty heavy, but
since traffic has been relatively light, I haven't started bitching.  :)
But now that an ever so convenient and generously offered mailing list exists,
all the Tori Amos fans should board the fuzzy blue bus over yonder, destined
for really-deep-thoughts and really-deep-thoughts-request at the address of
gradient.cis.upenn.edu.  The bus fee is exactly one email message.  {=

|======================================================================
|Boris Chen  | c164-ks@ara.berkeley.edu   |     --Kate Bush
|"I turn to my computer, And spend evenings with it, Like a friend."
-- 
                                                       Ken.
[Mail&Info:          KTFan@uiuc.edu]       brownfld@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
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