Re: Psychological Abuse (WARNING-Long and Intense!)

[katefans@chinet.chi.il.us (Chris n Vickie)]

Vickie here. This discussion does not belong in gaffa. However, I cannot
let Melissa's casual and cruel dismissal of Larry's post go unchallenged.
Since she decided to continue this in gaffa, I will answer her post in
gaffa too. Larry deserves a public reply. 

There are many people who will not want to read this. I apoligise in 
advance of their being inconvenienced. News readers can just hit "n"
but Digest readers will not have that choice. I'm sorry, but "scroll
down very fast" is the best advice I can give.

There are many people who will read this and be sorry they did. To minimize
this, I will tell you in advance that this post is about rape, psychological
harm, lack of compassion and empathy, and rudeness. Many people might
consider the following post offensive and/or completely irrelevant to
rec.music.gaffa. I say that compassion and empathy are part and parcel of
Kate Bush's work. "Offensive" is relative and the reader's own problem.

The following post is personal and ugly at times. I make no apologies for
the content. Many people will see me in a different light after this is
posted. Good or bad, I don't care. I feel the need to speak out and so I am. 

I flame, and I fully expect to be flamed back. 

Melissa has every right to believe what she believes, but she does what 
I'm always accused of doing, which is making her opinions apply to every-
one else. The subject of psychological force is a much more serious matter
than "feeling the magic" of music though.

****************************************************************************

This thread started with the PMRC, and led to Larry's equating psychological
force with physical force. Melissa Caldwell took offense at this equation.

Larry posted a very painful story to illustrate his personal experiences
with the use of psychological force. Melissa chose to quote his entire
post. I choose not to. All >quotes are Melissa Caldwell's writings.

Larry, Melissa and I would agree on one thing. A rape using physical force
is a horrible thing. However, Melissa, even after reading Larry's chilling
account of the psychological force used on him, continues to refuse to
believe that there is such a thing as psychological force, and that such
force should be equated with physical rape, and that such force can be 
extremely harmful.

Melissa talks at Larry:
M> Whether or not you have a penis has nothing to do with the fact that 
M> the idea you're expressing is disgusting and sexist.  It's disgusting to 
M> me because regardless of your experience, there is no comparison between 
M> being forcibly raped and this mythical "psychological force". 

Mythical eh?  "Fable; legend; ficticious story" is what my mini-dictionary
says, so I assume you mean the same thing.

I'm happy that you've obviously never had to experience psychological
force/pressure/abuse/torture. You are very lucky. You've led a charmed 
life. Good for you. I mean that sincerely and honestly. I would never wish 
harm, physical or psychological, on anyone. You seem to have lived a very
normal, wholesome life and I think that's wonderful. But...
 
Melissa, you don't know anything about the real world.

Not if you can say what you say and think it applies to *everybody* 
which is what you just did when you said "mythical."

M> Since psychological pressure cannot force me to do anything, any pain
M> that I may feel as a result of the pressure is due to a weakness in my 
M> own character, and not because psychological pressure is so irresistible.

You say "me" and "my" but you apply this to everybody else. It seems
to me that you have never experienced serious psychological pressure.

To be presumptuous, I tend to think that what you are referring to amounts
to turning down/turning away someone like a school date who is pestering a
girl to go all the way, or a co-worker who is harrassing a woman to go to
bed with him, to use a couple of common examples of psych pressure most
women have had to put up with. In cases like that, it's true that very often
it's "weakness of character" that results in sex. No, it's not forcible
rape, and shouldn't be equated. Even so, psychological scars can result from
the guilt and the anguish of such a sexual encounter. 

There are much more serious forms of psychological pressure than the above
examples though. You don't seem to think so, because you've never had the
misfortune of experiencing any, and don't know anyone who has. That's nice,
and again, I'm happy for you, but have you ever heard of the words "empathy"
or "compassion?" If so, do you know what they mean? If so, have you ever
felt either of these emotions? If so, are they reserved for family and 
friends only?  

M> If anything, pressure of this sort increases my will to resist.
M> We make our own choices.  Claiming that some of these choices are the
M> result of psychological force is a way of conveniently avoiding personal
M> responsibility.

I see no qualifiers here. None whatsoever. You state this as fact.

This attitude is as sickening to me as someone saying "women would not be
raped if they would only resist" because you seem to be implying that
*ALL* forms of psychological force can *ALWAYS* be resisted at *ANY*
time by *ANYBODY* no matter *WHAT* the circumstances. If this is what you
truly believe, then I would _urge_ you to volunteer at a mental hospital,
speak to people there, listen to the stories that the patients and staff
have to tell. Go to a battered women's shelter and talk to the women there.
They're not all there because of physical abuse. Go to any psychiatrist's
office and talk to some of the patients. Or, don't go anywhere at all, just
post your beliefs in any of the Psych newsgroups and see what kind of
responses you get. I daresay that even in soc.women you'd see lots of posts
that would blast your phrase "mythical psychological force" right into outer
space.

You want examples?

Can you reconcile that phrase with the example of a child who is
sexually abused by a parent/relative/babysitter/whoever. If there is
actual penetration, that is rape, is it not? OK, what if there isn't any
penetration, but the abuse involves fondling or something else? What if
the adult was nice and kind to the child, gained the child's trust and 
didn't physically hurt the child? What if the adult told the child that 
they (the adult) would get in trouble and might get hurt if the child told 
on them, thus making the child feel guilty, thus playing with the child's 
confusion between right and wrong, loyalty and honesty? 

Another scenario: what if the adult didn't physically hurt the child, but
threatened the child or the child's parents if the child didn't do what the
adult wanted? 

These are forms of psychological force, right? If you say, well, I'm
talking about adults, not children, then you will have contradicted
yourself already. So, scratch "We make our own choices."

What if said child grows up in an environment of psychological abuse? 
Would that person necessarily have the "strength of character" to be
able to resist other forms of psychological pressure or force? Maybe. Maybe
not. Maybe if they get counseling or therapy. Maybe they'll come out of it
all fine, with no scars. Then again, maybe they'll go insane. Maybe they'll
commit suicide. Then again, maybe they'll become President of the United
States. Maybe they'll become a mass murderer. Maybe they'll become a 
computer programmer. Maybe they'll become a counselor for other abused
children, maybe they'll be your corner waitress. Maybe maybe maybe.

Maybe you should stop applying your own standards to the entire population 
of the Planet Earth, because maybe you have no idea what *real* psycho-
logical force is, and maybe you have no idea what *real* harm psychological
abuse can cause.

Melissa still talking at Larry:
M> I felt your remarks were sexist because you said that a woman can
M> try to deflect a penis headed toward her vagina.   By talking
M> specifically about the rape of a woman by a man and then downplaying 
M> that as being less harmful than "psychological force", your comments
M> sounded extremely sexist to me.  That sort of statement supports the 
M> notion that women would not be raped if they would only resist.  
M> Resistance can be effective, but many times it is not an option.  

Did you think up the above because Larry is a man? Does being male make
him an easy target for your thoughtless rantings? What if *I* had said what 
Larry said? I'm a female, would you accuse me of "sounding sexist?" 
I happen to *agree* with what Larry said. So, call me sexist too. Before
you do though, I should tell you that I've been raped. By force. Knowing
that, would you deem me qualified to state the opinion that psychological
force can be as harmful as physical force? If not, what would it take to
be qualified in your eyes? Perhaps I have those qualifications, because
I've also been raped by someone who used extremely intense psychological
force. I had no choice in either case, both were unavoidable and both
were tramautic. Which was worse? The physical rape was scarier because I
didn't know if I would live or die. Which was ultimately more tramautic?
The "psychological" rape, because of the guilt and the sickening aftermath
of shame, the feeling that maybe I could have done something different,
maybe I could have talked my way out of it. Maybe I could have, but then
again, maybe I couldn't have, and just maybe I would have been left on a
mountain at night in the middle of nowhere in the middle of winter in the
middle of a snowstorm. As was very convincingly threatened.

How did I get myself into that situation, I might be asked (therefore
subtly implying that what occured was my fault) and the answer is...
I was a truck co-driver. He was my boss.  Was it "weakness of character" 
that made me decide that using my body was better than being thrown out of
the truck? No, I'd categorize it more along the lines of survival instinct.
Can this situation be classified as "rape?" I think so. Was it "physical"
rape? No. Was it rape using "psychological" force? Yes. Why was it more
tramautic than the physical rape? Because of the societal attitude that a
woman can resist psychological force if they have enough "strength of
character." Deja Vu.

I had no desire to give personal details in this impersonal forum, but I
resent your fluffy, dismissive and thoughtless attitude toward psychological
force. It *can* be as harmful as physical force. If you say that being
subjected to psychological force can't lead to death, then I say do some
research into suicide statistics. Find out backgrounds of some of the
victims. There's more than one way to commit murder.

M> If you don't understand how your remarks might have given me this 
M> impression, then perhaps you don't understand the weight of your
M> words after all.

Larry understands the weight of his words. I understand the weight of
his words. I bet a lot of other people do too. You understand nothing 
about it. You don't even try. You don't even take the time to think about 
it. You don't even give a millisecond's thought to how hard it must have 
been for Larry to post his experience with psychological force in this
this public and increasingly hostile forum. Instead, you take Larry's
personal and extremely painful admission, re-post it, then trivialize it
with your "regardless of your experience" and "weakness of character" and
"conveniently avoiding personal responsibility" bullshit.

Melissa, you have the empathy and compassion of a double-edged razor blade. 

I have my asbestos suit on and I'm ready to take on you or anyone else
who hasn't got the foggiest notion of what psychological pressure/abuse/
force/torture/pain is.

Flames from people who think that I shouldn't have posted this will be
noted, and ignored. I seem to be the resident "emotions defender" in this
group and I speak out when I feel emotions have been stomped on harshly.
In this case, Melissa makes Cynthia look like a Sunday School teacher.
 
My words will no doubt be turned around to make it look as if I don't
believe that Melissa has a right to her opinion, and/or that I want to
"squelch free speech" or some such nonsense. I'll answer this in advance.
Melissa has every right to believe what she believes. I have every right to
turn around and say that I think she's a thoughtless fluffhead. Richard has
every right to tell me that his wife is NOT a thoughtless fluffhead and that
my logic is all wrong and whatever else he wants to say in that Richard-like
fashion of his. Cynthia has every right to charge in and tell me that my
panties are all wadded up again, and Jon Drukman (or anyone else) has every
right to tell me that I take things too seriously, this is only a newsgroup.
Yes I take things like emotions seriously. I take mine seriously and I take
Larry's seriously. Know what? I don't even know Larry. We've never met, and
we've never even corresponded via e-mail. I know him as a name on
Love-Hounds. But, I do know that he's a human being behind that computer
screen, with feelings and emotions. I know that he took the ungodly risky
chance of telling a very personal story, one that affected him very deeply
and one that will be filed in his brain under "Trauma" for the rest of his
life. And I know that Melissa came back at him and, through the wonder of
modern technology and the Big Sky BBS, slapped him across the face and told
him that he was "weak of character" and I don't give a shit how she worded
it, or that I might be accused of putting words into her mouth, that's what
she implied. She has the right to say anything she wants, but I also have 
the right to be totally outraged about it. I also have the right to view
Larry as one of the bravest people I've ever come across on the net. 

Fine and dandy. Let's get it over with, flame away. 

      "There is nothing so sad as a life without compassion" ToddR

It's where I stand, it's where I'll stay.

"It lay buried here. It lay deep inside me. It's so deep I don't
 think that I can speak about it. It could take me all my life, but it 
 would only take a moment to tell you what I'm feeling....Can you tell it
 to your heart? Can you find it in your heart to let go of these feelings?
 ....You might not think so now, but just you wait and see, someone will 
 come to help you..."
                                   Kate Bush "Love And Anger"

Some people with more than 5 brain cells know what this song means.

"As the people here grow colder I turn to my computer and spend my evenings
 with it like a friend"
                                    Kate Bush "Deeper Understanding"
See sig.

Vickie
katefans@chinet.chi.il.us
{-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-}
{    H       To join the friendly Happy Rhodes mailing list:   H        }
{      T            ecto-request@athos.rutgers.edu           T          }
{        R          "We're waking up, yes it's good"       R            }
{-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-}