Re: WD

[trent@csvax.caltech.edu (Ray Trent)]

In article <8701312124.AA25013@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> you write:
>>We are forced, as IED has repeatedly demonstrated, into forcing
>>definitions on QUALITY which are, at most, purely arbitrary.
> 
>IED really cannot believe that he has to point out this obvious
>fact YET ANOTHER TIME for you dumbbells.
> 
>He did NOT give arbitrary definitions of "quality". He
>made no judgmental remarks about the VALUE or "quality" of
>such properties as "sophistication", "refinement" and
>"complexity" AT ALL.

True. (ha) On the other hand, you haven't given us *any* indication
of what your arbitrary definitions of "complexity", "refinement",
and/or "sophistication" mean. Or, rather, by your replies to people's
attempts to come up with examples, you have demonstrated that you
mean "Kate-like". So, what you're really asking is: (as shown by your
refusal to discuss things reasonably) "Have there been any albums 
made since the early 70s that have been as "Kate-like" as  
The Dreaming and HOL?" 

The answer to your real question, then, is: no. (proof by tautology)

Depending on what you may have been *trying* to ask, one could make an
argument for many of the following: (all subjectively true to me)

Anything Stan Ridgeway has been involved in.
Art of Noise. (that they can say so much with only 1 or 2 sentences
               says a lot for their "refinement" etc.)
Much of Peter Gabriel's stuff.
Laurie Anderson (in a different way than Kate, certainly)
Some of the Stranglers stuff. 
Hell, even Yaz.
Or Aztec Camera.
Or XTC.
Or...

Before you reply that anyone who thinks that any of the above is more
S/R/C than Kate is full of it, ask yourself whether someone could say that
pink noise is more complex than any music, or that someone might think
Duran Duran was the height of sophistication (ick) or that Musak(tm)
is the most refined form (double ick), or... Also think about it before 
you talk about the "objective" quality of these measurements.

Kate has an amazing voice (even if it is computer enhanced), and is
incredibly proficient at production, and has some really interesting things
to say...but to religiously maintain that no one can *validly* have a 
different opinion is incredibly fascist. (not to mention )

Also, does anyone out there really believe that IED wasn't *strongly*
implying that these qualities defined "good" simply by the way he
couched his terms? Does IED really expect us to believe that he wasn't?
(note that he didn't ask for albums that were more "elitist", "pretentious",
and "noisy", even though these mean much the same things to many people) 
-- 
"...always begins with a single step."
					../ray\..
 (trent@csvax.caltech.edu, rat@caltech.bitnet, ...seismo!cit-vax!trent)