Re: the KeTtle whistles -- "too-lee-ay, too-lee-o..." in Latin

[seismo!hao!udenva!showard (Steve "Blore" Howard)]

>> = Blore
> = IED
(I'm only responding to the parts of IED's article on which I have something
to say. To everything else, assume a "That's a good point", "You're right,
I was wrong", or "I'll keep that in mind".)
 
>The notion that "anybody can judge art", and that
>anyone's judgment is as valid as anyone else's, is
>entirely invalid.

  Agreed, with some reservations.  This kind of thinking _can_ lead to
the "If you don't like it it's because you don't understand it" type
of argument, which is equally invalid.

 (The skyscraper example was good, by the way)

>In the present case, however, Guy, you have chosen a revolutionary
>record -- a record unlike virtually any other recorded
>piece of music in history, one which defies all previous
>standards of judging "popular music" -- and you have passed an
>uninformed judgment on it without having listened to it
>long enough even to BEGIN to hear the subtleties involved.
>NATURALLY you find it wanting! YOU HAVEN'T LISTENED TO IT YET!

  Once again we seem to be reduced to a matter of opinion.  I'll grant
you that "The Dreaming" is an unusual record, even that it is in some
ways "revolutionary."  But to assert that it is unique--in a category
by itself, removed from "virtually any other recorded piece of music
in history" require some backing up.

>>Of course I can
>>consider Kate Bush in the same context as conventional popular music,
>>because her music _is_ conventional popular music.
>
>You keep trying to call an apple an orange. Your argument
>is not substantially strengthened by simply affirming its
>validity. If you're so confident that Kate's music IS conventional,
>demonstrate how.

 On a very pragmatic level: it follows standard Western chord progressions,
uses standard rhythms, is played on conventional or traditional folk 
instruments (guitar, piano, nose flute, whatever) or on synthesizers.
The songs have verses and choruses with lyrics that fit standard meters.
It's recorded in a studio; it gets played on the radio; you can buy it
at Sound Warehouse (insert local record store chain here).

 Now you demonstrate how it's not. 

>The point is, "sounding good" is a relative term: Beethoven
>didn't, as a rule, "sound good" to the Vienna public of ca. 1810.
>Nowadays, a larger number of people feel that
>Beethoven does "sound good". If it DOESN'T sound good to YOU,
>does that mean you are correct in saying that it's not good music?

 This is something that comes up all the time in musical (any genre)
criticism.  How can we say that one piece of music sounds better than
another?  The debate continues, with no real resolution in sight.  I
should have realized the inherent fuzziness in "sounds good", and will
refrain from using it in future discussion/debate/argument.

>>Pop music is, after all, entertainment.  If the listener is not
>>entertained, or emotionally moved in some way to enjoy the song
>>then the song has failed to achieve its purpose: entertainment.
>
>But you're contradicting yourself in the same sentence. Since
>when has the verb "to entertain" become synonymous with being
>"emotionally moved in some way"? The latter criterion implies
>pretty much the opposite of what you've been trying to say:
>bland terms like "sounds good" and "entertainment"
>are a far cry from the entire range of human emotion.

  Excellent point.  It seems what I was doing in that sentence was
trying (subconsciously?) to redefine "entertain" to include some
nuances that the phrase "sounds good" doesn't capture.  My point is
that one listens to music, presumably, because one enjoys it--whatever
the reason for this enjoyment: emotional response, appreciation of
the musicians' skill, hooks, rhythm, lyrical content, association with
previous positive experiences, etc.

>                                                       Besides,
>all you can fairly say is that The Dreaming fails to entertain
>or "emotionally move" YOU.
 
  Right again. My original intention was to explain _why_ it fails,
for me, namely the production.

  We actually seem to agree on most of the issues, it's just that my
presentation of my views was less than clear.  Our only real difference
of opinion seems to be over the uniqueness of "The Dreaming."

-- 
"I pelted him with rocks, I stitched a scarlet letter 'K' on his
shirt so everybody would know what a knucklehead he is."

Steve "Blore" Howard, still hazy after all these beers
                      {hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard
or {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard