Re: KATE-CHISM REBORN

[seismo!hao!udenva!showard (Steve "Blore" Howard)]

>Blore, don't you see how empty these comments are? "Production"
>is a GENERAL term -- there's production and there's production,
>it's not a SPECIFIC THING! You seem to be visualizing "production" as
>some kind of sandwich spread: an "over-produced" record
>is like a hotdog with too much mustard! The point is,
>production is about as vague a term as any in modern music,
>and The Dreaming offers perfect proof that a HEAVILY produced record
>need not be an OVER-produced record.

 I'll agree to the statement, but not the example.  There are certainly
heavily-produced records that sound great.  I've given examples before,
including Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody" and "Somebody to Love".  I'll
also include the Beatles' "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" as
an example of heavily, but not overly, produced music.

>This issue can be considered in the context of Billy Green's recent
>posting about "Hounds of Love" and "Curse of the Demon":
>
>The connection between "Hounds of Love" and
>"Curse of the Demon" has been noticed before, most
>memorably by Dave Cross, who presented a home-made video
>to the song at the 1985 convention which included scenes
>from the movie.
>The really amazing thing about the
>quotation from the film ("It's coming...It's in the trees!")
>is that, despite the almost
>perfect likeness of Kate's version to
>the original, Kate's is NOT lifted from the
>film. John Carder Bush has said that the
>bit of dialogue at the beginning of
>"Hounds of Love" is not the original,
>but a re-creation.

   But if it's indistinguishable from the original (or at least indistinguish-
able without electronic testing), why bother?  Why not lift the dialogue from
the film soundtrack?  There're other "borrowed" sounds on the record--the heli-
copter from Pink Floyd, for one.

>                            The comparison which
>"Blore" makes to early Alan Parsons and Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody" is
>pretty much what IED expected. Such a comparison is
>misguided: a distinction has to be made between
>overt, flamboyant and obvious alterations in the recorded music and
>SUBTLY, DECEPTIVELY altered sound.

   What's the point?  If the alteration is so subtle that the listener
can't tell the difference, why make the alteration at all?

>>First of all, I never said that complexity is the same thing as
>>over-embellishment.  Over-embellishment, much like over-production,
>>is a result of not knowing when a song is done and continuing to add
>>things to it.
>
>The problem is that you still seem to be confusing the complexity of
>Kate's sound constructions with "over-embellishment".
>The two phenomena are entirely dissimilar.

  But a complex song that doesn't sound good is not better than a simple
song that does.  There are songs--virtually all of The Dreaming, probably--
which would sound better if they were less complex.

>You are demonstrating what IED feels is an all too common tendency
>among many relatively casual fans of Hounds of Love: namely, a
>tendency to consider Kate's conception of music in the same context
>as CONVENTIONAL popular music.

  See, this is why nobody on net.music likes you guys.  Of course I
consider Kate Bush in the same context as conventional popular music,
because her music _is_ conventional popular music.  And even if it's
not, it still has to meet the same criteria for popular (and even
Doug Alan admits it's pop) music:  it has to sound good.  Pop music is,
after all, entertainment.  If the listener is not entertained, intrigued,
or emotionally moved in some way to enjoy the song then the song has
failed to achieve its purpose: entertainment.

>                               Because "And Dream of Sheep" seems,
>on the surface, to fit in nicely with listeners' preconceptions about
>what is right and proper in pop music (e.g., it takes the form of a
>ballad, it follows a relatively simple
>and easily accessible chord progression, it features Kate
>at her piano  -- HOW nice and comfy!), listeners who look for
>this kind of familiar territory are bound to see the music that follows
>"And Dream of Sheep" as a kind of huge mistake -- "over-produced"
>-- in other words, they are bound to miss the point.

  But I don't (at least I think I don't).  I also enjoy the more complex
"Waking the Witch" and "Jig of Life" (the latter made my Top 10 songs of
'85 list--albeit as an honorable mention).  And whether I agree with your
interpretation of the "meaning" or "intent" of the song doesn't matter
two figs:  if I enjoy it, and you enjoy it, then everybody's happy.

>"And Dream of Sheep" is the introduction, the preamble, the set-up,
>the overture to the Ninth Wave. The song has no ending. At least
>a dozen things are happening in the music at the same time that
>Kate and the piano are "performing" the "song". And these elements are
>a CRUCIAL part of the overall piece: they make no sense outside of the
>context of The Ninth Wave as a whole.

  And that's your interpretation.  And it's fine, I won't argue with it.
But to say that if I don't agree with it then I can't truly comprehend the
album is a bit . . . iconoclastic.

>>  But what if, in adding all this detail, the result is to ruin a good
>>song?  There is a point beyond which any further additions will serve
>>only to clutter up the mix, and not make the song sound any better.
>
>Not again! Your fundamental mistake is in looking at
>Kate Bush's music as simply a collection of "songs". The idea
>is preposterous! As Doug has said several times, the production
>IS the music!

  And why not look at it as a collection of songs?  That's what it is.

>>>With significantly less production, *The Dreaming*
>>>wouldn't be *The Dreaming*.
>
>>No, but it might be a better album.
>
>OK, then, Average Guy, you're so sure that Kate's music is
>"over-produced", IED dares you to point out even one
>sound in The Dreaming that's unnecessary. JUST ONE.

   Well, technically speaking, the whole album is unnecessary.  But I know
what you mean and unfortunately I can't answer you.  I don't own a copy of
the album, and the friend who played it for me 'way back when is out of town.

-- 
     
"I don't think any songs should be banned, except maybe 'The Night Chicago
 Died' by Paperlace" 

Steve "Blore" Howard, Average Guy
                      {hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard
or {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard