Re: I didn't get flamed like this ...

[jordan@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu (Jordan Hayes)]

[ skip to the end for the musak question ]

	Really-From: David M. Hardy <HAADAV@MITVMA>

	It's very simple.  The nicest, most interesting people I've
	talked to don't swear at me.

Well, if I say "this is the best fucking band i ever heard" and you say
"Hey -- he swore at me!" then we had better stop right here. Close your mind
to people who don't speak the way you want them to and you're losing
out.

	By the way, who is Allen Ginsburg?

I believe it's Ginsberg.

Beat-era poet; old friend of Jack Kerouac and William Burroughs; got a
little into bad-crazy drugs a while back and now is into poetry as a
means to political change; occasional rapper for The Clash :-) (read
some socio-politico-big-city-mean-government-lets-kill-the-contras
poem on "Sandinista!" ...).

	> From: Jordan@ucbarpa.berkely.edu

Next time you transcribe my writing, try spelling berkelEy correctly
and why did you capitalize my login name? I sign my postings in lower
case, why did you change it? No big deal, just curious.

	> ... has become commonplace. Look, we're living in an immoral world,
	> and I don't think you should project your morality on a group of
	> people who you associate with by choice.
	> That's called oppression.

	Does living in an immoral world give you the right to be immoral???

RIGHT to be IMMORAL ?

Give me a break.

	I said nothing about morality.

Bullshit.

	If you think that I am 'projecting' 'morality' then you
	misinterpreted what I said.  I am not forcing anything on
	anyone, merely STATING MY OPINION.

Look. You came out here and started flamming about people who were
"obscene" and how you can't take them seriously and then you pleaded
for "us" to stop. I'd say that's projecting.

	Why did you take a GENERAL posting so PERSONALLY anyway??
	You're not the only offensive person in the world.

I don't recall taking your posting personally. However, I think that
the label "general" is a bit deceiving. Can you really expect that you
can say something to everyone (i.e., the whole list) and yet to no
one?

Besides, you said that you couldn't take seriously anyone who couldn't
express themselves without using "those words" ... well, I count myself
among the group you list as the target for your words. Therefore, I
will address my thoughts to you on that basis.

When I address this list, I address each reader personally, although not
by name.

	> Right, but you are trying to force a moral issue. That makes
	> you a wimp, geek AND a weenie to boot.

	Resorting to name calling?  And you had the audacity to mention
	'adult'?  It's laugh time again..... And I already said once
	I'm not forcing anything (Do you really think I could?)  And
	what's a weenie?  Are you calling me a hotdog?  That could be
	taken as a compliment...

I couldn't believe (and still can't) that you would suffix your moral
majority trash with a "and I'm not a geek, I just don't like to read
those naughty words" ... what kind of statement is that? I called you a
weenie just because of that statement. As for the connotation of a
weenie, we have these interesting things in English (perhaps not
*king's* english ...) called idioms. See, that lets us give arbitrary
tags to concepts without being suffocated by purists. Arbitraryness is
what makes languages different from pictograms and idiograms.

Grow up.

	>>         Flames and obscenities to /dev/null...
	> That's real brave of you. Throw in your two cents worth and
	> then say "I won't listen to your side".

	The reason I wrote the message I did is because I have ALREADY
	heard enough of what the type of people who swear have to say.

Then what on earth did you hope to prove by your posting?

	If you want to flame me for stating my opinion you go right
	ahead and continue doing it.  You won't change it no matter how
	hard you try.  Neither will anyone else.  All of the things I
	said are true for ME, and no amount of flaming will change
	them.

That's terrific. I don't want to change you. But I won't have you
telling me what to do or say. That's my reaction to it. People tell me
what to do, and I tell them to fuck off. Try expressing that without
`fuck'.

	You have NOT adequately expressed yourself.  Using profanity
	did not help you.  There are plenty of good words in the
	English language and I don't understand the need to have to
	resort to and keep repeating the same ones when you can't think
	of anything else to say.

I don't think this is true at all. Language is an ineffective
descriptive system. Read a little Jacques Derida and then come talk to
me. Repeating ones I've already used because I can't think of anything
else to say? I can't believe you are saying things like this.

	Like I said, I'm no language expert.

Q.E.D.

A friend of mine was in a 24-hour store near Cambridge when the guy in
front of him walked into the express line (6 items or less) with 9
things. The girl ("women" we usta call 'em...) behind the register said
"So, do you go to Harvard and can't count or MIT and can't read?"

This makes much more sense now.

Maybe you could take one of Chomsky's classes over there, right?

Have fun on your VM system.

jordan "sarcastic bastard" hayes

ps: oh - the music element in this posting: why did I wait so long
    to buy the Billy Bragg album that I heard a year ago? Damn.