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"The song is called Under the Ivy, and is (debatably, of course) one of the greatest pieces of recorded sound in the history of mankind."
--(IED)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 85 20:10:34 edt
From: Doug Alan <nessus>
Subject: Under The Ivy
Here's something I wrote to Hugh Maher a week ago, that contains the lyrics to "Under The Ivy", the B-side to "Running Up That Hill":
From nessus Thu Aug 8 13:40:50 1985
Subject: Lyrics and
interpretation of "Under The Ivy"
These are the lyrics as I hear them. This is the first of Kate's songs where I've ever noticed her lisp while singing.
What a song! What lyrics! I can barely take it! I'm typing this in with tears in my eyes....
It wouldn't take me long
To tell you how to find it
To tell you
where we'll meet
This little girl inside me
Is retreating to her
favorite place
Go into the garden
Go under the ivy
Go under the leaves
Away from the party
Go right to the rose
Go right to the white rose
I sit here in the thunder
The green on the grave
I feel it all
around me
And it's not easy for me
To give away your secret
It's not safe
But go into the garden
Go under the ivy
Under the leaves
Away from the party
Go right to the rose
Go right to the white rose
Go under the ivy
Go under the leaves
Go right to the rose
Go right to the white rose
I'll be waiting for you
It wouldn't take me long
To tell you how
to find it [line corrected. WIE]
It seems to me to be about the longing for youthful innocence lost. (Isn't a white rose a symbol of virginity? I'm not sure.) In this sense it seems to be a follow-up to "In Search of Peter Pan", which is also one of my very favorite pre-Dreaming KB songs. (My favorite pre-Dreaming songs are for your info "Breathing", "Egypt", "In Search of Peter Pan", "Moving", "Saxophone Song", "L'Amour...", and "December...") "In Search of Peter Pan" is about Kate's desire not to lose her youthful innocence, which she still had, I suppose, when she wrote the song.
"Under The Ivy" also seems to be about Kate contemplating suicide. And maybe the song is addressed to Death.
"It wouldn't take me long
To tell you how to find it"
Doug
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 85 09:05:41 PDT
From: ihnp4!sdcsvax!sdcc13!valerie
(Valerie Polichar)
Subject: Under the Ivy [KB]
The white rose is usually used as a symbol of death, so I would go with Doug's death interpretation.
Valerie
Date: Tue 20 Aug 85 06:05:01-EDT
From: Doug Alan <Nessus@MIT-EECS>
Subject: Suicide
From: ihnp4!sdcsvax!sdcc13!valerie (Valerie Polichar)
> The white
rose is usually used as a symbol of death, so I would go with Doug's death
interpretation.
If that's true, it certainly clinches the death/suicide interpretation! The other line that really makes me think that is "Away from the party".
I've never heard of a white rose being a symbol for death, but I'm probably just ignorant. I would have thought it would be a symbol for purity and innocence, but two other people today have confirmed to me that it is a symbol for death, but they didn't know why or from where.
So whywhofromwhenwherewhetherhitherhereforto is a white rose a symbol for death?
"And it's not easy for me
To give away your secret"
Doug
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 85 13:15:56 edt
From: Doug Alan <nessus>
Subject: symbolics
A couple weeks ago, I received a 4 page letter via U.S. Mail from Keith Patrick DeWeese, a big Kate Bush fan in Florida. He doesn't have a computer account, but receives Love-Hounds on paper. He has a bunch of interesting things to say, so I've decided to type in some of the letter (Thanks a lot for the letter Keith!):
[Under the Ivy:]
"my room-mate and I did some research into the lyrics. Here's what we found: the garden is symbolic of the female genitalia; ivy is symbolic of Dionysus and his female attendants; according to Hazlitt, "things spoken 'under the rose' (sub rosa) were part of Venus' sexual mysteries, not to be revealed to the unitiated." Sounds like a secret to me."
This is all quite interesting! But I really find it difficult to believe that Kate intended any of these things as symbols. She's not *that* scholarly. I think they're just a description of what Kate's back yard is like.
The rose, on the other had, I definitely think is a symbol, because it sticks out so much as being a symbol.
"From Barbara Walker's "The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets", the white rose or lily was a sign of the Virgin Goddess."
Is that only white lilies or all lilies? If the lily is a symbol of innocence, then the line "You crush the lily in my soul" in "Moving" finaly makes sense to me. "Moving" is about the dancer Lindsay Kemp, who inspired Kate's strong interest in dance and movement. Lindsay Kemp is gay, though, and it appears that "Moving" is a love song to Lindsay, who can't return her love in the same way because he is gay.
The line "You crush the lily in my soul" could then mean, "You stir passion in me".
"Later, Christians transferred both of these symbolic flowers to the Virgin Mary and called her the Holy Rose. In none of the sources I plowed through did I find any connection between the white rose and death.
From what I have been able to determine, a white rose can be a symbol for several different things: death, virginity, purity, innocence, and friendship. White roses are "friendship" roses. They are also, I am told, the only thornless roses. They are also used at funerals a lot.
In some places, the color white, rather than black, is considered the color of death. Kate must be aware of this -- look how strongly the color white plays in the Dutch video for the song "The Kick Inside".
It seems to me that in "Under the Ivy" the white rose is simultaneously a symbol for death, innocence, and friendship. It seems to me very likely that the song is about the contemplation of suicide and the song is addressed to Death, but it could also be that Kate is just sad about a dear friend who is dead, whose grave is in her back yard, and she wants understanding company.
"Everything I read dealt with the virgin while the red rose is the sign of *life* and the flow of menstrual blood. alker also mentions The Rose, a traditional Mummers' dance/ritual that was performed to celebrate death and resurrection. Could this be the party reference?"
Actually, I think the party symbolizes life, or perhaps modern day life. "Away from the party". Away from the problems and triviality of modern day life.
"I'm not going to venture forth with a definite answer as I've been wrong so many times before; however, there is a heavy dose of mythos in the song which is certainly the key to *something*."
....
"Women have been burnt as witches simply because they were beautiful." -- Simone De Beauvoir
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 06:28:45 edt
From: Doug Alan <nessus>
Subject: Lyrics to "Under The Ivy"
I now have the official lyrics to "Under The Ivy". I got them almost all right. Unfortunately, I got one very critical word wrong.
UNDER THE IVY
It wouldn't take me long
To tell you how to find it
To tell you
where we'll meet.
This little girl inside me
Is retreating to her
favourite place.
Go into the garden
Go under the ivy
Under the leaves
Away
from the party.
Go right to the rose
Go right to the white rose
(for me)
I sit here in the thunder
The green on the grey
I feel it all
around me
And it's not easy for me
To give away a secret -- it's not
safe
But go into the garden
go under the ivy
Under the leaves
Away from the party
Go right to the rose
Go right to the white rose
(for me)
It wouldn't take me long to tell you how to find it.
From: COBLEY A (on DUNDEE DEC-10) <A.Cobley%dundee.ac.uk@cs.ucl.ac.uk>
Date: Wednesday, 9-Apr-86 11:34:21-GMT
Subject: kb on tv TUBE "Under
the Ivy"
HEY kb was on a programme called the TUBE over here in england this week singing a song called 'growing the ivy' (i think thats what it was called, cant be sure though), just her and a piano at abbey road studio. 'fraid I couldnt video it as some wanker left the tape I use in just such emergencies at the wrong end.
From your resident ageing hippy
love and peace
andy.
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 88 09:12 CDT
From: "Liz Owens, Microcomputer
Product Center, 491-3889"<BABOOSHKA@nuacc.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: A theory that has nothing to do with Gaffa or "...Tenner"
Has anyone come up with a literary origin for "Under the Ivy?" I might have something here. Being a fan of children's books (it's amazing how a story can be entertaining without obscenity or sex in these times), I've been reading The Secret Garden, by Frances Hodgson Burnett, on of those classics I somehow missed as a child. Anyway, for those who don't know the story, it's about 2 lonely, ill, fretful children who find a secret garden and through the magic of actually finding something to care for, become healthy and reasonably nice kids after all. The door to the garden (a ROSE garden) is hidden UNDER THE IVY.
I'm still working on this idea.
Hoping you all have a pleasant continued existence,
Lizooshka
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 88 15:01 PDT
From:
IED0DXM%OAC.UCLA.EDU@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: The Secret Garden
> The door to the garden (a ROSE garden) is hidden UNDER THE IVY.
>
I'm still working on this idea.
Please continue, Auntie Lizoo. IED is crazy for Frances Hodgson Burnett, but never thought of going back to the text to look for such direct connections. Great idea, and a good possibility. There is at least one reference to another subject, as well, however.
Just finished reading Little Lord Fauntleroy, Sarah Crewe, and one or two others, also by Burnett, this summer. Extremely affecting.
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 89 01:52 PDT
From:
IED0DXM%OAC.UCLA.EDU@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Re: The Secret Garden
Also incidentally, at least one newish Love-Hound has asked, "Why white roses, and why the ivy?" or words to that effect. The answer is to be found in a relatively obscure Kate Bush song, the b-side of the Running Up That Hill single. The song is called Under the Ivy, and is (debatably, of course) one of the greatest pieces of recorded sound in the history of mankind. In it Kate sings: "Go into the garden,/Under the ivy,/Under the leaves./Go right to the rose./Go right to the white rose/For me." (Of course this could alternatively read "White Rose", but that's another story...) Hence the idea to send Kate white roses and ivy for Katemas. We may be relatively certain that Love-Hounds is neither the first nor the last entity to send such a token of love and affection to Kate, but it's still a thoroughly appropriate and sincere way to show our feelings for her on Katemas, so why not?
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 91 15:19:36 EST
From: Andrew B Marvick <abm4@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject: Under the Ivy
Judi asked what is Under the Ivy ? It's a simple ballad by Kate, a b-side from the The Big Sky single. IED should say "deceptively simple", though--it is actually very subtle, and has a secret subtext. Love-Hounds have sent Kate white roses on Katemas (and at the recent convention) for the last two or three years, in reference to this song and its "secret" meaning...
Date: Febr. 1993
From:
GRAHAM.G.R.DOMBKINS@BHPMELMSM.BHP.bhpmel04.telememo.au
Subject: white
roses
Hi all,
I just got back from an interesting lunch. We were talking about Valentines' Day coming up soon and I said that it would be a sad day since it'll be the first anniversary of Hanna Bush's death. I told my mate that it'll be a sad day for KT. He said that I ought to send her a white rose. I was dumbfounded since I didn't think he knew much about KT, especially about a song like 'Under The Ivy'. You know what I mean, most of her fans who know her songs well will send her white roses if they send any kind of flowers.
He then explained that the traditional meaning of a white rose is death. Sort of throws a new slant on 'Under the Ivy' doesn't it (or have I just missed that all these years).
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 86 02:00:31 EST
From: nessus (Doug Alan)
Subject: The Handsome Cabin Boy
Kate's new import twelve-inch single has been available in the U.S. for more than a week now, so I trust you have all run out and bought it, so that you have every note KB has ever put down on vinyl. But for those errant few who do not have it yet or who have not researched it's entire history, I will tell you about it.
The A side contains a totally new version of the song "Hounds Of Love". It is *not* a remix, but a totally new version called "Alternate Hounds Of Love". It is so different from the original, you could even say it's a new song. The drum beat is similar and it has the cellos chugging away, but the melody and lyrics are different. It is better than the original, musically, though the lyrics are more in the extended remix vein. The background vocals border on the silly (even more so than on the original), but someohow the sillyness fits perfectly and it sounds great.
The B-side contains the album version of "Jig Of Life" and a new song "The Handsome Cabin Boy". "The Handsome Cabin Boy" is a traditional dirty sea chantey, and Kate sings it a cappela in her best Scottish accent. Throughout there is a haunting chorus of Kates in the background droning a continuous two notes that are a fifth apart. This is really neat not only because it sounds *really* intense, but also because this is what bag pipes do. Bag pipes have three pipes. The pitch of one of the pipes can be controlled, but the other two pipes always play the same two notes which are a fifth apart.
I have known for a while that Kate Bush was introduced to music as a kid by singing dirty sea chanteys with her brothers, and I find it strange that a dirty sea chantey now appears on her record. When I interviewed Kate, one of the questions I was going to ask if I had the time was if she would be willing to sing one of the dirty sea chanteys she sang as a kid. And now one is on her record! In any case, I have heard the song "The Handsome Cabin Boy" before. In fact, I heard it on a tape of a radio show done about five years ago where KB was guest DJ. HCB was one of the songs she played, and she said it's an "absolutely classic story". It was peformed by A. L. Loyd and Euwan McCall. I'm told that has also been performed by Gordon Bok.
These are the lyrics as Kate sings them:
It's of a pretty female as you may understand
Her mind been bent for
rambling into some foreign land
She dressed herself in sailor's clothes,
or so it does appear
And she hired with a captain to serve him for a year
Her cheeks they were like roses and her hair all in a curl
The sailors
often smiled and said he looked just like a girl
But eating all the
captain's biscuit her colour did destroy
And the waist did swell of pretty
Nell, the handsome cabin boy
It was in the Bay of Biscay her gallant ship did plow
One night among
the sailors was a fearful floorin' row
They tumbled from their hammocks,
for their sleep it did destroy
And they swarmed about the groanin' of the
handsome cabin boy
"Oh doctor, dear. Oh doctor," the cabin boy did cry
"The
time has come -- I am undone, and I will surely die"
The doctor come
a'runnin' and a'smilin' at their fun --
To think a sailor lad should have a
daughter or a son
The sailors when they saw the joke, they all did stand and stare
The
child belonged to none of them, they solemnly did swear
And the captain's
wife she says to him, "My dear I wish you joy
For 'tis either you or
me's betrayed the handsome cabin boy" [the end]
There are two verses to the song which Kate has left out. One is the second verse:
The captain's wife she being on board, she seem-ed in great joy
To see
her husband had engaged such a handsome cabin boy
And now and then she'd
slip in a kiss, and she would have liked to toy
But it was the captain
found out the secret of the handsome cabin boy
[end of second verse]
The other is the last verse:
Then each man took his tot of rum, and drunk success to trade
And
likewise to the cabin boy, who was neither man nor maid
Here's hopin' the
wars don't rise again, our sailors to destroy
And here's hoping for a
jolly lot more like the handsome cabin boy
[end of last verse]
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 06:17:42 EST
From: nessus (Doug Alan)
Subject: The Handsome Cabin Boy
Notes from her newsletter:
We would like to point out the label credit for "The Handsome Cabin Boy" should read "Traditional song, arranged by Bush" not as written which puts Kate as the composer!
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 85 16:59:03 EDT
From: Susanne E Trowbridge <ins
aset@jhunix>
Subject: "My Lagan Love"
I just bought the "Cloudbusting" 12"...it's excellent, and I really enjoy the soulful singing on "Burning Bridges." And anyone who doesn't get chills up their spine upon hearing "My Lagan Love" must be dead!
This brings me to a question...anyone have any idea what "Lagan" means??
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 85 16:56:40 edt
From: nessus (Doug Alan)
Subject: Lagan Love
Well my dictionary says:
lagan also ligan or lagend -- n. Cargo or equipment thrown into the sea but attached to a float or buoy so that it can be recovered.
Sounds reasonable to me, though I haven't yet sat down and transcribed and figured out the lyrics.
-Doug
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 85 20:23:07 edt
From: nessus (Doug Alan)
Subject: Lyrics to "My Lagan Love"
MY LAGAN LOVE
When rainy nights are soft with tears And Autumn leaves are falling I hear his voice on tumbling waves And no one there to hold me At evening's fall he watched me walk His heart was mine But my love was young and felt The world was not cruel, but kind
Where Lagan's light fell on the hour I saw him far below me Just as the morning calmed the storm With no one there to hold him My loves have come, my loves have gone And nothing's left to warn me Save for a voice on the traveling wind And the glimpse of a face at morning
What can one say?
-Doug
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 85 18:39:03 PDT
From: Kevin Carosso <engvax!KVC@cit-vax.ARPA>
Subject: More on "My Lagan Love"
I checked into this too, but I think the medieval meaning of the word might be a little more in line with the song. According to the dictionary I dug up, "lagan" comes from the Middle French "lagan" and the Medieval Latin "laganum" meaning "debris washed up from the sea". Perhaps the word "lagan" exists in modern French with this same meaning? Kate would've known it then, I suspect.
To me this makes more sense, unless someone really did take her for a bouy...
Kevin Carosso
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 85 15:00:49 edt
From: nessus (Doug Alan)
Subject: Re: More on "My Lagan Love"
I dunno. I think the definition from my dictionary makes more sense, since the song seems to about her Lagan love having gone to sea. Perhaps he died? Or perhaps he went on a boat that has never returned? I think he died, because the lines
Where Lagan's light fell on the hour
I saw him far below me
just
as the morning calmed the storm
And no one there to hold him
seem to me to conjure up the image of looking down at him in a grave. "Lagan" appears to be used as the name of someone though -- perhaps a cargo god? :-)
"And nothing's left to warn me"
Doug
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 90 16:51 PDT
From:
IED0DXM%OAC.UCLA.EDU@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: versions
There are many other recordings of the Irish folksong "My Lagan Love", including a famous early version by the great John McCormick; a version by the artsinger (pure soprano in classical manner) Angela Pearson with harp accompaniment on a Hebrides album called My Lagan Love ; a rockier version by Maura O'Connell; and, if IED is not mistaken, a version by A.L. "Burt" Lloyd; as well as an instrumental version by the Irish band The Wolftones.
-- Andrew Marvick
[another one is on "Irish Heartbeat" by Van Morrison. --WIE]
Date: Sat, 03 May 86 16:23 PDT
From:
IED0DXM%UCLAMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Not This Time
In reference to recent inexplicable comments published recently regarding "Not This Time":
first of all I must state flatly that this track sounds absolutely nothing like "Journey". Second, it is extremely similar both in terms of production and song structure to Kate's other anthem-style Hounds of Love b-side, "Burning Bridge". I assume that these two recordings sound so much alike because they represent Kate's quickest and least polished new "demo" style of recording, done in her new studio with the core of her band and a very fast, OTT over-dubbing of her own voice in the huge final choruses.
The recording is nevertheless completely unlike anything heard on commercial radio, not only in the strange melodic twists in verse and bridge, but in the disquieting hysteria of the final choruses, as well. Doug has reacted unexpectedly to new Kate Bush material in the past, as with "RUTH"; I am surprised that he hasn't learned that her music often demands a slow assimilation by the listener over time, but that such time is invariably well spent. This is not to say that either "Burning Bridge" or "Not This Time" are crucial parts of the KB oeuvre; only that heated and irrational references to "Journey" are as unwarranted in one case as in the other.
Date: Wed, 07 May 86 17:15 PDT
From:
IED0DXM%UCLAMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: If not this time, then
when will you capitulate?
> Well, sure the vocals are distinctly Kate, and add some value to the song, and there is elephantotic distortion on the guitar that Journey would never use, but in general it has the melodic, rhythmic, and over-produced characteristic (you know, the way that lots of instruments all merge to create a muddled wash that is so common in Journeyish AOR pop) of American corporate rock.
This is, after all, a matter of opinion, and I am trying to remember that, but really! The stylistic similarities between "Burning Bridge" and "Not This Time" are clearly audible--far more audible than the similarities which you claim exist between "Not This Time" and American corporate rock (good term). Of course the vocals are "distinctly Kate", but what's more significant is *how* they are distinctly Kate. One thing many listeners notice when listening to, say, the final epic (and, by your definition, apparently, "over-produced") choruses of "The Big Sky" is the abandon, the deliberate throwing away of technical controls in Kate's vocals.
A similar liberated singing style can be heard in a more understated form in "The Morning Fog". But this kind of singing is much more obvious in "Burning Bridge" and "Not This Time", and it does not, I argue, appear before the new album. Beyond that, the whole concept of structuring a song with the overwhelming emphasis on a long closing sequence of choruses sung by Kate's voice many times over-dubbed, and consisting of "tiddle-ee-ohs" or some such traditional folk phonetics in the tradition of "tra-la-la", is distinctive of these new Hounds of Love songs. Just think of the background vocals in "Alternate Hounds" and you can see immediately how similar they are to the chorus in "Not This Time".
Furthermore, such a concept, and such use of phonetic choruses, are not only absent in Boston or Journey or Foreigner or Styx --they are completely antithetical to the musical principles (or absence of same) espoused by those bands.
Furthermore, if I were obliged to find similarities between the song and the music of any of those bands, I *would* single out the guitar --despite the "elephantotic distortion", the introduction of such guitar in the last choruses is a staple of commercial American rock. I might also cite Kate's use of the popular endearment "baby"; but this word cropped up in "Running Up That Hill" without condemning the song as a sellout to "Journey". As to rhythm, there I'll agree with you that its links with mainstream rock are strong, but not so strong that the closest musical parallel to "Not This Time" must be "Journey". The rhythms of rock have always been extremely limited, and the differences between a brilliant, adventurous rock rhythm and a dull, unoriginal one can usually be traced to slight changes in emphasis of a beat and alterations of tuning, miking and recording techniques.
Finally, in response to your contention that "Not This Time" shares melodic characteristics with "Journey", well, I'm baffled. There are so many beautiful details of melody, both as written and as interpreted, which are unique to "Not This Time", and which place it so firmly within Kate's native English musical tradition, that I am at a loss to understand how they can all have failed to meet your notice.
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 86 01:15:34 EDT
From: nessus (Doug Alan)
Subject: This Time
I've transcribed the lyrics to "Not This Time", which is the B-side to "The Big Sky" single. You might remember that I have thought this song pretty yucky. Well, in transcribing the lyrics, I have had to listen to it a lot, and I have to say that I have after all become rather fond of it. I still think that the arrangement sucks (especially the guitar), but the vocals are so emotionally powerful that I can at times overlook that. Here are the lyrics as heard by the semi-reliable ears of Doug Alan (does Our Katie really say another naughty word?):
NOT THIS TIME
Over the line that renders everything sensitive
What chance do I have
being here?
Put an end, put an end
Put an end to every dream
When you're near, I feel you, and I forget myself
Not this time, baby
Not this time
Not this time, baby (Not this
time)
I don't know why I build a mountain, every time
And here I am
wondering why I'm doing it again
"Too-lee-yay, too-lee-yo,
too-lee-yay, too-lee-yo, too-lee-yo"
That's what I say to keep me
going
To keep the shit away
I don't know what it is, but every time
you're near
I feel you, and I forget myself
No, not this time, baby (No)
Aww, not this time, we won't (No)
Oh, not this time (No)
Not this time time
Come on, we all sing
"Too-lee-yay, too-lee-yo, too-lee-yo
Too-lee-yay, too-lee-yo, too-lee-yo"
[etc. until end of song]
Not this time, baby
Not this time, we won't
Not this time, baby
No. Huh! Huh! Huh!
Not this time, yeah, yeah.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 86 16:18 PDT
From:
IED0DXM%UCLAMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: NtT
> Also - I do believe that the guitar Greg doesn't like on "Not this Time" is actually synthesizer. I'm not positive, but it sure sounds like one to me.
This is hard to believe (although an attractive idea). To these ears there's little doubt that it's an electric guitar, albeit with a distorted sound. If you're sure it's a guitar synth sound, could you cite some other recording with a similar synthetic guitar sound? Very interested.
Date: Thu, 7 May 87 16:20:30 EDT
From:
drukman%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Jonathan S. Drukman)
Subject: Not
This Time
Well, I've got a pretty good idea what the lyrics to "Not This Time" are. The first verse seems pretty clear:
Oh with a mind that renders everything sensitive,
What chance do I
have here?
Put an end, put an end
Put an end to every dream.
When you're near, I feel you, and I forget myself.
Then you've got your chorus of "not this time" and the next verse:
I don't know what I'm given unto every time
And here I am wondering
why I did it again
I say, you keep me going, you keep the shit away
I don't know what it is every time you're near,
I feel you, and I forget
myself.
And another mess of choruses, the line "and we all sing" and those neat nonsense words that I won't even attempt to spell... The only line that gives me a hassle is the first line in the second verse - I'm not sure I've quite got it. Any alternate suggestions are welcome!
--Jon Drukman
Date: Thu, 07 May 87 17:01 PDT
From:
IED0DXM%UCLAMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Tricky lyriKs
IED was greatly enlightened by Doug's transcription of "Not This Time" when he originally posted it. However, the one line which IED still hears very differently from Doug happens to be the one which you, Mark, signed off with yesterday. In fact, IED is relatively certain that the line "I don't know why I build a mountain" is wrong. First, the syllable interpreted as "build" does not start with a 'b' sound but with a 'g', IED believes. Second, the word "mountain" sounds more like "my door" to this listener. Which leads to IED's hesitant suggestion of "I don't know why I give him my door" -- which, of course, makes no sense at all. But "build" and "mountain" just aren't there, as far as IED can tell. As for "Delius", it's really only the "Latin" lines that still elude everyone. The thing is, they may not be Latin at all, but English. Any ideas?
Date: Fri, 8 May 87 23:37:36 PDT
From: ganzer%trout@nosc.mil (Mark T.
Ganzer)
Subject: TricKy LyriKs and oTher messages
Regarding the "Not This Time" lyrics, I was glad to see Jon's interpretation as it was much closer to what I had originally. Unfortunately, it sounds as if poor Katie was pissed out of her skull (drunk to the rest of you) when she recorded this song, because the words are so slurred together. Here is what I hear:
Oh with the mind that renders everything sensitive
What chance do I
have, here
Put an end, put an end
Put an end to every dream'
When you're near, I feel you, and I forget myself
Not this time, baby
Not this time
Not this time, baby (Not this
time)
I don't know why I'm given my doll, every time
And here I am
a'wonderin why I'm didn't 'gain
"Too-lee-yay, too-lee-yo,
too-lee-yay, too-lee-yo, too-lee-yoo", I say
To keep me goin', to
keep the shit away
I don't know what it is, when you're near
I feel
you, and I forget myself
Not this time...
and on to the end. The first two lines are very confusing, as I don't know quite what it could mean. Oh well...
MarK T. Ganzer
Date: Tue, 12-May-87 01:34:40 EDT
From: briarpatch.uucp!billy@mcnc.org
(Billy Green)
Subject: Re: Not This Time
> Oh with a mind that renders *everything* sensitive,
Could *this* be "insensitive"? If so, the "in-" is very soft, but that's what I hear. Looking at the song as a whole, I vote for "insensitive". Look at the singer and the singee. The singee thinks that the singer doesn't care. The singer admits to caring to the point of self-exclusion (i.e., caring too much for the singer and not enough for herself).
> I don't know what I'm given unto every time
"I don't know why I give in, [but] I do every time."
The [but] is something that I think my mind wants to add to make up for lost punctuation. This version of this line makes more sense in conjuction with the next line:
> And here I am wondering why I did it again
> I say, you keep
me going, you keep the shit away
This is the only line that gives me trouble. I agree that the above line sounds right, but something bugs me about it. The singer seems to be at odds with the person she's singing to. She's getting such a kick at telling him that she's standing up for herself and not giving in. I have trouble with her saying that he keeps the shit away. Her attitude seems to be that he is the *cause* of any shit that might be bothering her.
[ Look, it goes like this:
"Too-lee-yay, too-lee-yo, too-lee-yay, too-lee-yo, too-lee-yo"
That's what I say to keep me going -- to keep the shit away
That
explains everything. -- |>oug ]
On the other hand, she also says "Every time you're near, I feel you, and I forget myself." Knowing how Kate likes to write dialogues, then I can imagine the character almost giving in for a moment, but pulling herself back up to say, "Not this time."
Enjoy. Billy Green
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 87 11:29 PDT
From:
IED0DXM%UCLAMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: KB Complete lyrics
Kate Bush Complete is the title of a new and long-promised book that has finally been published by EMI/IMP Books. It is a collection of "all" of Kate's songs published to date.
... and it even solves a few "mysteries".
In "Not This Time" both Doug Alan and IED seem to have been wrong about the words in the second verse. According to this new book, the lines are:
I don't know why I give in but I do every time
And here I am wondering
why I did it again
Toor-ee-ah Toor-ee-oh
That's what I say
It
keeps me going and it keeps the ship away
I have not yet, however, entirely accepted the above transcription. There are a number of errors that can be confirmed in other songs as published in this book, which indicate either that Kate was not consulted about every detail of the lyrics to be printed or that she didn't inspect every detail too carefully when she had the chance. No specific information is given about how close the Bushes' involvement was with this project.
But looking at this new lyric, IED can't help suspecting that "ship" is a euphemism on the part of the editors. There's no reason for using "ship" in the context of this song, none at all, that IED can see. On the other hand, "shit" makes absolutely perfect sense in the verse, echoing almost exactly the meaning of the first phrase in the same line ("It keeps me going"). So you be the judge. MarK, Doug and the rest of the Loyal Lionhearts, IED awaits your opinions with great interest.
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 89 16:32 EST
From: PMANCHESTER@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Subject: lyrics
"Not this Time"
Doug Alan insists I have the last line of the vocal wrong:
> It's "C'mon, we all SING" -- not "C'mon, we all sin"!
Having not been alone in hearing it my way, and being still uncertain based on the vocal itself, I am tempted to be stubborn here, but in fact, on song-structure grounds, Doug's version IS more plausible and I accept correction. The line does effect a transition from the lyric to the choral finale, and it is quite natural that we all be enlisted to join in.
To me this is Kate singing very directly and personally out of the deep ambivalence she feels in relationships. The "baby" addressed seems to me to be an individual man, men in general, her audience, heaven and destiny; "not this time" means not tonight, not this time in our lives, but maybe also not this lifetime, not this world. "To the A, to the O" I take to be Alpha and Omega (omega is "the O that's bursting," descriptive of the Greek letter), an ancient catholic liturgical image that she would have met every year in childhood at a particularly dramatic moment in the ritual for the Easter vigil mass, representing this whole creation as made total in Christ.
"What chance do I have to be here? Put an end to every dream." Does the "you" who draws near and lets her forget herself console her? Or is it the same as "baby," so that she is constantly caught between some 'true' self she would keep to herself and the self that gets caught up in relationships? The title line, at any rate, is sung with a very affecting complexity of emotion--strong decisiveness mixed with anguished regret.
This at any rate is the take on the song that made "c'mon, we all sin!" seem to make sense to me, as a wise, human resolution that lets her keep on going. Allow me to invoke it one last time, before I let go of it as my error.
Among reasons I persisted in this mis-hearing is that I included it--along with this account of the A and the O--in a letter to Kate, to which she replied, letting it stand. This is probably simply her courtesy, or that together with the delight she takes in enticing people to hear their own things in her lyrics.
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 90 22:10 EST
From: PBMANCHESTER@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Subject: Case closed
Doug Alan gathered up the arguments to refute Larry DeLuca and now Kate confirms them:
>> [Larry DeLuca on "Not This Time":] (It should also be noted that I think all the people who insist the line "It keeps me going and it keeps the ship away" is really "...it keeps the shit away" are silly - if that's what she'd said, really, she would have published it.
> Kate didn't prepare the book, so your argument is pretty tenuous. The lyric is obviously "shit" -- not "ship". First of all, it sounds like "shit" -- not "ship". Secondly, what the hell would "to keep the ship away" mean?
Asked about 'control' in Rolling Stone, Kate says you *have* to be in control, "otherwise people will shit you right and left."
Kate always sounds like herself.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1991 23:34 EDT
From: Peter Byrne Manchester <PMANCHESTER@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Subject: NTT
Larry Hernandez mentioned--and Ed Suranyi quickly put it right--the version of the line from "Not This Time" printed in KBComplete that uses the word "ship" for one reason or another. What I found interesting in Larry's post of actual lyrics for the B-sides from the JPN BOX was that it confirms the more general fact, that those lyrics seem likely to have come from either KBComplete or from wherever IT got them. And my question is: anybody know?
To stay with the particular song "Not This Time," about which there was some correspondence that I provoked more than a year ago, the thing that interests me about the line as Larry cites it is not at all just the (totally obvious and in no way unlikely) actual next-to-last word of the line but the fact that in other ways it plainly is not a transcription of the performed lyric. The whole line is SUNG "To keep me going and to keep the shit away," which is in other ways as well from KBComplete.
A question and a project: Q. Are we to presume that KBComplete or JPN BOX have consulted, say, the published sheet music? Or are their lyrics too based on "best takes" on an admittedly difficult song? Project: in either case, what lyrics do those of us who are participating in an edition of the B-sides lyrics want to use? If (through some consensus) we should agree that what Novercia published and what Kate sings differ, what do we do? If, in fact, it is down to our ears finally, then the potential for extent texts to be mistaken seems to produce a responsibility.
Since it is no longer just my own transcription, but benefits from KBComplete as well as particular corrections from Doug Alan the other year, and ALSO because 'ship' aside, I can make no sense of the available lyrics anyway, which seem to differ significantly all over the place from what I hear, allow me to share my *draft* (please) of the best version I have come up with. To me, it seems emotionally far more coherent than the printed version--but it differs in logically consequential ways ('sensitive', not 'insensitive'; 'feel you', not 'fear you'), and I would value comment.
NOT THIS TIME
Kate Bush
Oh with the mind
that renders everything sensitive
What chance
do I have to be here
Put an end, put an end
Put an end to every
dream
When you're near I feel you
And I forget myself
Not this time baby
Not this time
Not this time baby
I dunno why I give in but I do every time
And here I am a'wondering
why I'm doing it again
Toor-ee-ah Toor-ee-oh
Toor-ee-ah Toor-ee-oh
That's what I say
To keep me going and to keep the shit away
I
don't know what it is
Every time you're near
I feel you
And I
forget myself
No, not this time baby
Not this time out
Not this time
Not this time
C'mon, we all sing
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 91 23:12 CDT
From: Chris Williams <katefans@chinet.chi.il.us>
Subject: Not This Time
Vickie here. I tried to find my original post about NTT but couldn't find it. As long as the subject is fairly current, I'd like to jump in again with my interpretation, mainly because to me it's a song with a very important social and emotional message.
IMHO, it's a song about a battered woman who can't seem to break away from the husband/lover (?) who's treating her so badly. She finally comes to a decision that she must make the break to save herself.
As with most Katesongs, we have to fill in our own details on background information and situations. The lyrics I hear are slightly different from either Peter Manchester's or Kate Bush Complete.
Not This Time
Kate Bush
> Oh with a mind that renders everything (in)sensitive
> What
chance do I have here?
If the word is "sensitive" then she's talking about herself. She is a person who sees things in a gentle way and the relationship she's in threatens to make her into a hard and cynical person. If the word is "insensitive" (which is what I hear), she's talking about him, but the meaning is the same. How can she remain true to her gentle nature while she's with a man who doesn't know the meaning of the word "gentle"?
> Put an end, put an end
> Put an end to every dream
She might as well forget any dreams she has of a decent and happy life as long as she's in this relationship. He's putting an end to all her dreams.
> When you're near I fear you
> And I forget myself
The word is definitely "fear"..I hear it very clearly. Listen closely to how she sings the word. Quavering..the character is scared. She has to forget all about herself and become totally subservient when he's around, or else she'll get beaten. Of course, she might be abused no matter how she acts.
> Not this time baby
> Not this time
> Not this time
baby
She's trying to get up the courage to leave him for good. Here she's still a bit timid and unsure, though the second "baby" has a slight hard edge to it. Almost cold and calculating.
> I dunno why I give in but I do every time
> And here I am
a'wondering why I did it again
She's always given in to his demands, she's always been meek and she's always gone back to him. For the first time she's questioning what's wrong with her that she can't stand up for her own rights.
> Toor-ee-ah Toor-ee-oh
> Toor-ee-ah Toor-ee-oh
>
Toor-ee-ohhhhh must I say
> To keep me going, to keep the shit away
This Irish phrase is sort of a personal mantra. Perhaps it reminds her of good times in the past. Probably from before she met this jerk!
> I don't know what it is
> Every time you're near
> I
fear you
> And I forget myself
> No, not this time baby
>
Not this time you won't
> Not this time
> Not this time
darling
He'll never abuse her again, she's finally made up her mind. She's finally gotten up the courage to leave him and start her life anew. The relief in her voice is apparent and the shouts of jubilation are almost chilling in their intensity.
> C'mon, we all sing
Simple lyrics don't convey all that's going on in the last half of the song. Her voice gets stronger and more confident, and there are lots of voices swirling about. Actually, sometimes I hear the shouts of jubilation at the end as screams of insanity and a possible alternate interpretation is that she can't stand his beatings and abuse anymore and kills him in a fit of passionate self-preservation. The line "Not this time you won't" supports this. Who knows? Maybe Kate saw The Burning Bed right before writing this song.
Whatever, it's way too short and I love it.
Vickie (one of Vickie'n'Chris)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1991 00:23 EDT
From: Peter Byrne Manchester <PMANCHESTER@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Subject: "Not This Time"/over and out
It was great to hear from Vickie Sunday (April 28), who has been in some danger of dwindling to a legend while she and Chris don't have regular network access. As always, her account of her take on "Not This Time" is an important contribution, and I appreciate the help. I'm aware that this is not everybody's favorite song, but I'll admit to feeling some vindication in discovering that she has taken it seriously too.
It is sound method to test one's version of a lyric against an interpretation of the song, and in general I find hers successful.
>IMHO, it's a song about a battered woman who can't seem to break away from the husband/lover (?) who's treating her so badly. She finally comes to a decision that she must make the break to save herself.
I feel it's too strong to take the person in the lyric to be a battered woman (or even necessarily a woman), but certainly the song addresses a conflicted love and the difficulty of extricating oneself from it. I don't think the "fear you" needs to be taken as physical fear; for me it is more evocative if it is about the power of a love that has become obsessive or non-reciprocal to be crushing or stifling for oneself.
Whatever the interpretation, Vickie's efforts with the song have put us a position to decide on the authentic lyrics as sung. I continue to think that has importance beyond this particular instance. So: to be done with this one, first I write the three versions in circulation, with judgments about their differences; then I write the version those judgments suggest. I give them parallel formats for comparison. In the few places where the evidence is not yet clear to my own ears, I adopt a two-out-of-three prevails rule.
[Vickie's version] .......... [KBCOMPLETE's version] .......... [My version, recent post]
NOT THIS TIME ............... NOT THIS TIME ........................ NOT THIS TIME
Oh with a mind that ..... Oh with a mind that ............ Oh with the mind that
renders everything ..... renders everything ............. renders everything
(in)sensitive ................ insensitive .......................... sensitive
What chance do I have ... What chance do I have ... What chance do I have to
here? ........................... here ......................................be here
It's "a" mind; 'with a' and 'with the' are very close, but 'a' is more natural. It's also "do I have here"; I was misled by the fact that the here is pronounced almost as two syllables--hee-ere. As to sensitive/insensitive, it's up for grabs. KBCOMPLETE prints sensitive in the lyrics section, insensitive in the music; Vickie can't call it, but points out it works with her interpretation either way. I am going to stay with my version, attributing it to the singer, not the other. At most there is a continuation of the glottal 'ng' of 'everything', not a new syllable.
Put an end, put an end ........ Put an end Put an end ............ Put an end, put an end
Put an end to every dream .. Put an end to every dream .. Put an end to every dream
When you're near I fear ....... When you're near - I fear ..... When you're near I feel
you ....................................... you ........................................ you
And I forget myself .............. And I forget myself ................ And I forget myself
OK, two to one in favor of 'fear', and I'll go with it. But only because it is more clear in the next stanza, and consistency is to be expected. I still can't stop hearing 'feel' here.
Not this time baby ......... But not this time baby ............ Not this time baby
Not this time .................. Not this time ........................... Not this time
Not this time baby ......... Not this time baby ................. Not this time baby
Not this time
The last reprise of "Not this time" is backup vocals, not lead.
I dunno why I give in but ...... I don't know why I give in ..... I dunno why I give in but
I do every time but ............... I do every time ...................... I do every time
And here I am a'wondering .. And here I am wondering ...... And here I am a'wondering
why I did it again ................. why I did it again ................... why I'm doing it again
It isn't "I did it again"; it's "I'm doing it again."
Toor-ee-ah Toor-ee-oh ............. Toor-ee-ah Toor-ee-oh ............ Toor-ee-ah Toor-ee-oh
Toor-ee-ah Toor-ee-oh ............. Toor-ee-ah Toor-ee-oh ............ Toor-ee-ah Toor-ee-oh
Toor-ee-ohhhhh must I say ...... That's what I say ................... That's what I say
To keep me going, to keep ....... It keeps me going and it ........ To keep me going and to
the shit away ............................ keeps the ship away ............. keep the shit away
Vickie is right that there is a final "toor-ee-oh," but then it's "that's what I say," with the 'what I say' thrown by very quickly. Vickie and I agree against KBCOMPLETE that it's "TO keep," etc., but she misses the "and," which is very distinct.
I don't know what it is ............. I don't know what it is ............. I don't know what it is
Every time you're near ...... But every time you're near ......... Every time you're near
I fear you ............................ I fear you ..................................... I feel you
And I forget myself ............. And I forget myself ....................... And I forget myself
No, not this time baby ......... No not this time baby ................. No, not this time baby
Not this time you won't ....... Not this time you won't ............... Not this time out
Not this time ....................... Not this time darling .................... Not this time
Not this time darling ........... Not this time
Vickie is alone in being right on this passage. The "darling" is a stunning growling howl, easy to miss as a word.
C'mon, we all sing .......... C'mon we all sing ............ C'mon, we all sing
(Refrain) ........................... (Refrain) .......................... (Refrain)
Integrating the results, what follows strikes me as presentable for a definitive version of the lyrics for this song:
<Love-Hounds version: thanks to |>oug Alan, Vickie Mapes, Andrew Marvick, Ed Suranyi, Larry DeLuca>
NOT THIS TIME
Kate Bush
Oh with a mind that renders everything sensitive
What chance do I have
here
Put an end, put an end
Put an end to every dream
When
you're near I fear you
And I forget myself
Not this time baby
Not this time
Not this time baby
I dunno why I give in but I do every time
And here I am a'wondering
why I'm doing it again
Toor-ee-ah Toor-ee-oh
Toor-ee-ah Toor-ee-oh
Toor-ee-oh that's what I say
To keep me going and to keep the shit
away
I don't know what it is
Every time you're near
I fear you
And I forget myself
No, not this time baby
Not this time you won't
Not this time
Not this time darling
C'mon, we all sing
(Refrain)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 85 20:23:07 edt
From: nessus (Doug Alan)
Subject: Lyrics to "Burning Bridge"
These are the lyrics to Kate's two new songs as heard by the semi-reliable ears of Doug Alan:
BURNING BRIDGE
Oh, come close to me
Come cross the bridge
I need to know what
you have to say to me
(We've been waiting all night long)
What have
you got to say to me?
(We've been waiting all night long)
Tell me
all about it
(We've been waiting all night long)
Tell me please
(We've been waiting all night long)
Woe, I know
I know what
works for me
So cross the bridge
The burning bridge
With
friends behind us
From the line
It's you and me, baby, against the
world
(We've been waiting all night long)
I got to know what you
have to say
(We've been waiting all night long)
What have you got to
say?
(We've been waiting all night long)
Ooooooh
(We've been
waiting all night long)
I got to get close now
(We've been waiting
all night long)
Tell me all about it
(We've been waiting all night
long)
All night long
(We've been waiting all night long)
All
night long
(We've been waiting all night long)
It works for me
It's you and me, baby
(We've been waiting all night long)
Against
the world
All night long
It works for me
Let's cross the
bridge
Oh, I know
(We've been waiting all night long)
I know I
know
(We've been waiting all night long)
All night long
It's
you and me, baby
I said "works for me"
It's all right
It's you and me, baby
Against the world!
It sure seems like this might have been written for the HoL side of HoL. It seems to be about overcoming depression by becoming intimate with someone. In some ways the lyrics remind me of Kate's earliest recorded song "Passing Through Air" (1973) only more desperate: "Passing through air, you mix the stars with your arms/ Walking through here, the doom of eternity balms".
written by Love-Hounds
compiled and edited
by
Wieland
Willker
Sept 1995 June 1996