Re: Lily

[jean anne kirwin <jkirwin@s850.mwc.edu>]

For those of your tired of the 'Lily' thread... ff over this please and
accept my apologies.  As I caught up over the holidays... I found that
I have been somewhat 'attacked' by a particular person and I feel it
neccessary to issue a rebuttal as well as address some other
issues.  Here goes:
   
>I don't really understand why some people are apparently so uncomfortable
>dealing with this data.  It clearly relates to kate Bush, as it has affected
>her enough to use it in her own song of protection.  An examination of this
>material may shed some insight into her reactions feelings; so why do some
>clamor so much about the value of discussing/examining this ritual and thre
>potential role of ritual magic in her music/experience?  It seems that every
>other aspect of her life is up for discussion.  I'm also curious as to why
>some are taking the role of "subject cops"...is this a common reaction on
>newsnet boards?  When people are uncomfortable with a topic they try to
>pressure others into letting it drop because it is "..too off topic"?

The causes of this are very simple:  fear, ignorance and prejudice.  
Need I really say more?  Childhood conditioning runs very deep.  Many have
been taught that to believe such things will lead the soul straight to
the realms of hell... therefore, most are unwilling to entertain such
concepts.  In addition, magic has been reduced by modern day society to
the mere trickery of pulling a rabbit from a hat or simply 'fooling'
the observer.  This is what people associate with the concept of magick..
being fooled.  But this is no where near it's actual point of origin.
It has been degraded over the centuries by the Christian Church in a
very successful manner.   This is unfortunate. 

>It's just "believers" taking the opportunity to post about their
>beliefs, (one of which is that Kate must *share* their belief.)

>   It is no "proof" at all.
>   Kate wrote _Cloudbusting_, and we cannot claim that she believes
>in orgone energy.
>   Kate wrote _Them Heavy People_, and we cannot claim that she
>is a follower of Gurdjeff.
>   Kate wrote _Coffee Homeground_, and there is no proof that she
>ever poisoned anyone.
>   Kate wrote _Pull Out The Pin_, and she is not (to my knowledge)
>a Viet Cong. 
>   Kate is a *writer* who create fictional characters who do and
>believe things that she doesn't. I think it's fairly obvious
>that I don't need to explain the difference between fiction and
>reality. 

Chris, some people require soild 'proof' that what they see and
feel is, indeed, part of reality.  Others live their lives acting
on their intuition.  Apparently, you are of the sort much unlike
myself.... incessantly searching for proof... for evidence of 
what is 'true' and what is 'false', who is 'wrong' and who is
'right'.  But the fact of the matter is, we all CREATE our own
reality.  Therefore, if what you have stated above is 'proof'
enough that she was only acting out a few moments in a fictitious
story, then so be it.  As far as I'm concerned, your statements
have no more 'disproved' that she is a Wiccan than mine have
'proved' it.  If Kate were to tell us all tommorrow that she
never performed a magickal ritual, would you consider this to
be 'proof' as well?  I wouldn't.  No one but Kate will ever
know what her true feelings are and what she does behind her
own closed doors.  Unfortunately, when someone becomes an avid
'fan' of an artist, they like to profess that they know everything
about them... it is an attempt to make the artist as much a part
of the self as possible.  We identify with them.  However, we
inevitably end up projecting ourselves onto to artist... 
no one really knows who Kate truly is in her soul.  Only her
soul knows.    

>   You have no more proof of what she does or does not believe
>than your own desire to have her believe the same as you do.

Chris, I fail to recall where exactly in my post I stated MY
BELIEFS???   Could you point these out to me?  You apparently
assume that because I was thrilled with Kate's lyrics, I must
believe in Wiccan philosophy.... my beliefs are of a personal
nature.   
 
>To date, we know these two facts: Kate was confirmed as a 
>Catholic 

So was I, over 13 years ago... SO WHAT?????

>    Jean believes that the presence of this "proves" that Kate 
>is a Wiccan, but the next post on my system proves... 

Again, Chris, you are stating my beliefs for me.  I never said
this 'proved' anything.  What I did say was that it appeared as
if Kate had 'dabbled' in the arts of the white witch... that is
all.  In addition, I closed by speculating on the POSSIBILITY
of her being a Wiccan.... 

>We have quite a bit more evidence than this, Chris, though certainly
>nothing conclusive.  Over the years she has given more tidbits away
>that you will admit: She has definitely mentioned believing in
>"energies".  She has said in an interview that she does not consider
>herself a Christian, but can see that many Christian beliefs are
>attractive.  Recently she has said that Lilly is a healer whose help

Thanks for the support here!  I really think that if we all take a
long hard look at the TREND of Kate's music over the years, it will   
become obvious that Kate is a very mystical person....  


>	Chris,  I disagree with your contention that examination of the
>sources from which Kate Bush may have drawn her material is irrelevant,
>and I think that you are personally uncomfortable with it, thus motivating
>your responses.  Whenever I try to analyze a song, a paper, or a poem, I generally look for the sources from which the material may have come.  It often
>provides clues as to the intent and meaning of the work, and it invokes
>symbols which may have been part of the intent of the artist.  Kate Bush is
>known for her tendency to refer to literature, etc., in her works.  It makes
>good sense to examine her sources.

I agree.  We all know that when a writer creates his work, he is putting
a bit of himself and his own life experience into it.  This cannot be
avoided, and even 'fiction' is a form of self expression.  We should all
try and keep this in mind.

>  This is a misrepresentation of my position. I have done plenty of
>examination of source material myself. That is a worthy thing, but
>my objections came true. Several people have used this "research" as
>an excuse to pour hundreds of lines of nonsense verbage only tangentally
>related to the song onto rec.music.gaffa.

Chris, you are REALLY elevating yourself to new heights here.  First of
all, what have you examined?  Second of all, how can you so arrogantly
mock others 'research' without having any real clue as to what they
really have studied?  And finally, how on earth can you state that 
these 'Lily' discussions are all 'nonsense verbage' only 'tangentally'
realted to the song???!   Please, for everyone's sake, come down off
your celestial pedestal and open up your mind just a little...  I'd
be interested in how you are prepared to substantiate this statement..
we have all put a good deal of effort into showing the relationships..
can you reverse them with the results of YOUR 'research' for us all
to see?

>    Yes, but out of your own post, which I did read, only a few
>sentences could be construed as anaylsis, the vast majority of it was
>a painfully tedious description of the "ritual." The source to anaylsis
>ratio was very poor.

If I had the time, I'd write you a BOOK on this ritual as well as
many others... and I'd drown you with source... What was provided by
the individual here was a very quick and dirty summary of a ritual..
that's all.  It was a concise one at that.   You are just sending
out digs here... unwilling to open your views a bit.

>   Jean is perfectly welcome to believe that Kate is a well-disguised
>duck-billed playtypus for all I care. But if she attempts to claim that
>this is *true*, especially on gaffa, we *will* ask for proof.

There you go again... proof proof proof!  You are really hung up on
that concept, aren't you?  I never stated she was one... so don't
ask me for your so called 'proof'....

>   Vickie had a very valid point. Kate got the positions of the angels
>wrong, because it wasn't important enough to her to check.

How do you know this?  Are you in Kate's head?  In my opinion, they
have been deliberately reversed for a reason particular to the 
rite sung about.  This is often done, with the angels being invoked
from just about any direction... after all, they are spirits and
they can come and go as they please!  They are not 'hooked' to one
direction or another.... they simply represent and guard them.  But
their spirits can complement the attributes of any direction as
needed.   But that is only my opinion...  I have no idea what her
reasoning really is.  Neither do you, no matter how vast your Kate
knowledge is!!

>   If Lily *knows* that she is perpetrating a sham, then I believe
>the word "evil" would be accurate. If she is mistaken, and she
>believes that she posesses "powers," then she sufferes under a delusion.

Again, your arrogance abounds!  How can you say she doesn't possess
powers?  Are YOU Lily?  And what gives you the right to state that
she 'suffers under a delusion'?  If we follow your own statements:

>   Thanks again for the compliment. I am in the position of arguing
>against something that a lot of people *wish* were true. Most people
>would like to live forever, would like to believe that there is some
>sort of life beyond death. Most people would like to believe that
>humans can posess abilites beyond our senses and skills. Their desire
>for these things leads them to disregard their critical facilities.
>There is a part of myself, a part that often shows it's self in my
>dreams that would like to believe these things also. A part of me
>wishes that I could see my father again. But I know this is not going
>to be. I had a dream a few months ago, and woke up in tears. I 
>dreamed that my dad visited. He was dressed in the same suit that
>we buried him in. This part of me wishes that he had really come
>to visit me, but this wasn't so. It was just a part of my mind
>providing something that another part needed. I would also like
>to be able to stretch my arms out and fly. Neither is going to
>happen. 

we see that you suffer more than you need be.  I find it sad that
people such as yourself have lost hope... I wish there was a way
that I could convince you that your father really visited you
on another plane... I believe he did.  It moved you so much you
cried while in a dreamstate...  compelling events.  But, the key
to it all is belief... we can believe in anything we choose... and
in believing it to be, it is.  We make it so, defining our own
reality.  Just for a moment... entertain the thought.... let 
yourself believe that he really came to you... and you'll be
surprized where your thoughts take you.   For the first time
in your life, anything will be possible.

Jean