Re: Ken, you called?

[vickie@pilot.njin.net (Vickie Mapes)]

<sigh> <sigh> <sigh> <Will I ever learn...?>

Sorry about this folks, but it's *very* important to me that the
miscommunication between Ken and I gets cleared up. The main reason
this is not going via e-mail is because it's obvious that other
people misunderstood me as much as Ken did. I *hate* being
misunderstood. I didn't explain my position well enough this time
to avoid it. Ken jumped to false conclusions based on my vagueness,
but also, since I got involved in a thread that my guy Chris started
getting cranky about, Ken automatically assumed that I feel exactly
the same way and was talking about the same issues as Chris. It's 
that misunderstanding that I'd like to clear up. Read on, hit "n"
or scroll very fast.

I said...

>>Vickie here.
>>I'm not going to get deeply involved in this thread

Hah!

...the thread being sexism and male chauvanism in record reviews, which
stemmed from, and returned to Kate and Tori being compared. I thought I
would bypass the sexism part of the thread and just comment on Kate &
Tori. I screwed up and instead got drawn into this against my will.

Let's see where we went wrong...
 
Ken>>> What comes immediately to my mind is that female vocalists seem to
Ken>>> be much more popular than male vocalists. 

Vickie>> In which alternate universe? (Besides gaffa & Ecto, I mean)

First mistake, I jumped into the thread. Second mistake, I tried to
make a joke. Third mistake, I forgot to use a smiley.

(Ken's answer deleted)
 
Ken>>> If I say that Happy Rhodes' upper range is a near-dead-ringer
Ken>>> for Kate's, is that an insult because I can't think of a single
Ken>>> bloody singer that's similar to Black Francis? 

Vickie>> No, of course not. Then again, Happy's upper range *is* a near-dead-
Vickie>> ringer for Kate's, so this example isn't a good one.

K>     In other words, what you're saying is that if Singer A is compared to
K> Kate, and it's not a really accurate comparison (in who's mind?) then it
K> _is_ insulting?  There's so much opinion in making comparisons that it can't
K> be seriously considered as an insult, can it?  Opinions are these harmless
K> little things that can only be harmful if there are contradictory facts.
K> Which there aren't, in this case.

I am *so* confused. Ken, you're jumping on me for something I never said.
You can "in other words" all you like, but I never said, or meant, that
comparisons are insulting. Note my "no, of course not." I just thought
that to make your point you should have used a different example, because
Kate and Happy's upper ranges *are* very similar. I thought the point of
the original thread was when 2 dissimilar, but vaguely same genre-ish
artists were compared. Kate and Tori, for instance. Even if you had
said "...Tori's whatever is whatever to Kate's" I *still* would have said
"No, of course not" because I *don't* think comparisons are insulting.
Teach *me* to keep my mouth shut! Thank you Ken.

K>>> ...Kate/Tori comparison. They are similar in some ways, different in
K>>> many others.  In explaining the style of Tori, how could the mention of
K>>> Kate Bush, an admitted major influence on Tori's style, be insulting?

V>> Who "admitted" that Kate's a major influence on Tori's style? Not Tori.
V>> She likes Kate, but hasn't really been influenced all that much by her.

K>     If Tori listened to Kate, she was influenced by her. ...
K>     I hear it in Tori's music.  Nothing dumb-striking, but I am immediately
K> reminded of Kate's early work.  Some of Tori's music doesn't evoke this
K> comparison.  But it is a comparison, and it's my kindof-educated opinion
K> that it's similar to Kate.  Insulting Tori hasn't entered the equation yet,
K> which is what confuses me.  Kate isn't equal to Tori, but then again that's
K> not what I would say in the first place.

Ken, what we have here is a massive case of miscommunication. I'll take
the blame because I a)jumped into this discussion against my better
judgement and b)didn't make it perfectly clear that...

I  am  not  insulted  by  comparisons  between  Tori  and  Kate.

You're focusing on one thing, while I was focusing on another. I was
disregarding everything except the "an admitted major influence on
Tori's style" and that's what I was responding to. It's the wordplay...
"admitted" "major influence"    "hasn't really" "all that much" 

I was disagreeing that Tori or anyone else "admitted" that Kate was a
"major influence" on Tori's style, but if I'd wanted to say that it was
my opinion that Tori has never ever ever been influenced by Kate in any
way, shape or form, no way no how, I would have said that. Knowing that
some influences possibly have seeped through, I tempered my response by
using vague "maybe"-ish terms. Still and all, it had nothing to do with
being insulted by comparisons. I have -zero- problems with the fact that
you do see similarities between them. 

Do we understand each other here? Forget the insults part, forget the
comparisons part. If you had said that Kate was an "admitted major
influence" on Happy, I would gladly agree with you, because Happy has
said so herself. But when you're talking aobut Tori, I'd say "show me
the article/interview where Tori 'admitted' that Kate has been a 'major
influence' on her style." I'm only taking you to task for attributing
something to Tori that she never said, not *your opinion* that Kate has
been an influence on Tori. Got it?

K>>> Besides the fact that the comparison is helpful for an explanation, 
K>>> the similarity is quite obvious.

V>> Very obvious. They're both 4I. (Intelligent, Interesting, Innovative
V>> and Independent). 

K>     I am unfamiliar with her intelligence, how interesting she is, how
K> innovative she is, or how independent she is.  This applies to both Tori
K> and Kate.  I would roughly agree that their music is "4I", but I refuse to
K> confuse that with the flesh and blood.

Another mistake on my part. I did mean their music (everything in general,
including vocals, lyrics and style) but didn't make that clear. "4I" is
my own personal "genre" that I put my favorites into. When confusion
about genres fly around and words such as "gaffaish" "ectoish" "etherealish"
(or whatever word someone might use to try and describe "if you like Kate,
you might possibly like..." artists) are used, I think about how hard
it is to get a handle on genres. For years I've privately used "4I" to get
around this problem. It (the term) sounds silly and is weird to explain,
which is why I never use it in "public" (meaning gaffa and Ecto) though I
have used it on my radio show. It's an easy box for me to put my favorites
into, and it doesn't matter how similar or dissimilar the artists are. For
instance, the music, vocals, lyrics and styles of Kate and Victoria 
Williams are as dissimilar as humanly possible, but they're both "4I" to
me. As are Diamanda Galas and Jane Siberry. kd lang and Happy Rhodes.
Lisa Gerrard and Tori Amos. It's my own little thang and either I shouldn't
have used the term, or I should have explained it a bit more.

K>>> Tori is similar to Kate.  This gives me a bloody ROUGH idea of how she
K>>> sings.

If you think so, that's fine with me. But...

K>>>  And owning her album, I'll say that anyone who denies the 
K>>> hints and breezes of similarity is deluding themselves and ignoring 
K>>> Tori's art.

...here, you're insulting *me* by saying that if I don't think they're
similar that I'm "deluding myself" and "ignoring Tori's art." Did I take
you to task or call you names to flame you at all? No. All I said was:

V>> No Ken, I hear no hints and breezes of similarity between Tori's music 
V>> and Kate's music, except that I love the music of both artists.

My opinion, that's all. 

K>     None at all?  Zero?  No sense of influence?  Tori's musical style
K> was created with an entire lack of outside influence?  Feh.

Watch that sarcasm Ken. Yes, of course Tori's musical style was created
with the help of outside influences. Bartok and Robert Plant. 

K>  I feel very strongly that there was influence, and
K> I'm willing to make the comparison.

Fine.

K>  My opinion of similarity (and the
K> opinion of "journalists") has no limiting or insulting properties. 

*I* never said it did.

K> Similarities, taken by itself, is a word that does not specify what is or
K> is not similar.  General similarity.  "If you like Kate, you should give
K> Tori a try."

I understand perfectly what you're saying. I too would say "If you like
Kate, you should give Tori a try." You would say it because you think
they have similarities and I would say it because to me, they're both
"4I" and both beliefs are valid for each of us. 

K>  You're putting some kind of "=" sign between two names.

I have no idea what you mean.

K> This can be limiting if the reader finds the writer's opinion to
K> be incorrect and thus misrepresenting an artist (a certain form of an
K> insult, I guess,) but IN AND ONLY IN THE OPINION OF THE _READER_.

I still have no idea what you mean, or what it has to do with anything
I said. 

K>     So I can't argue against the possible fact that you are insulted by
K> comparisons to Tori and Kate.  That's your prerogative.

I just want to know one thing. Where, in my original post, did you get
the idea that comparisons between Tori and Kate insulted me? Show me,
point it out, make it clear to me why you said this. (though yeah, I
noticed you said "possible") 

K>  But saying that
K> the person who made the comparison is being a pecker is rediculous.

Now Ken, I've waited a day and counted to 120,000, but it hasn't helped.
I'm still furious at this.

WHEN DID I CALL ANYONE A "PECKER" AND WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT I DID?

Let's be all nice and crystal clear here. I DON'T CARE if people compare
Tori and Kate. I'M NOT INSULTED if people compare Tori and Kate. I never
stated *ANY* sort of opinion about people who do compare Tori and Kate.
I never called anyone a "pecker" and I think that this is where you owe
me an apology for putting words in my mouth. Something I never said,
meant, or thought.

K>     What seems to have slipped under the rug is that people's opinions are
K> their opinions.  Disagreeing with said opinions does not make the opinions
K> evil.

Fine! I agree! I never said anything about anyone else's opinions. You
however, seem to be outraged at *my* opinion that Kate and Tori are not
very similar. Sheesh!

K> It's every person's right not to
K> like Tori or Happy, or OH MY GOD, EVEN KATE!!!! *gasp*  Not liking
K> an artist, and criticizing their music is an expression of opinion.

Absolutely. But what does this have to do with anything I said?

V> I love Kate, and I love Tori.
V> I'm not deluding myself and I'm not ignoring Tori's art.

K>     Are you giving the same respect to peoples' honest opinions?

Yes, I am. Are you?

K> Please keep in mind that the force of my argument was really pressed 
K> over the edge, if you will, by flatulent burblings of sexism and male
K> chauvanist pig-dominated societies, et.al. 

I don't really care. It's not an excuse to jump to conclusions about me,
read things into my post that weren't there, put words into my mouth,
disregard my opinions, and assume all kinds of things about me that simply
aren't true. My vagueness isn't an excuse for you either. You assumed
too much and jumped on me for no reason.

Vickie