The _Electronics_&_Music_Maker_ interview (fall 1982)

[IED0DXM%OAC.UCLA.EDU@mitvma.mit.edu]

 To: Love-Hounds
 From: Andrew Marvick (IED)
 Subject: The _Electronics_&_Music_Maker_ interview (fall 1982)

      This interview is certainly one of the very best ever
undertaken with Kate. It is quite different from the majority of
interviews conducted by the mainstream music publications, in that
the main subject of discussion is actually the _music_, and Kate's
methods of making it. In this respect it's similar to the _Keyboard_/
_Totally_Wired_ interview, but IED thinks Kate reveals a good deal
more about her musical orientation in the present conversation.
      This version of the interview is an edition of a version re-printed
_Break-Through_ Issue No. 4 (April/May 1984). The interview originally
appeared in the October 1982 issue of _Electronics_and_Music_Maker_.
Unfortunately the interviewer's name was not given in _Break-Through_'s
edition, and IED has never seen the original, so he cannot identify
the interviewer.
     As usual, all of IED's remarks are enclosed in brackets <>;
anything in parentheses () is part of the original printed version.

-- Andrew Marvick

     A unique vocal style, piano and Fairlight instrumental playing,
  and new role as producer as well as manager, designer, choreographer,
    composer and arranger, inspired this interview about Kate's music
                   and her new album, _The_Dreaming_.

     There appear to be two major steps that influenced you as a singer:
that your family's interest in music inspired you to teach yourself
the piano, and that after securing your first recording contract you
started mime and dance lessons.
     "Yes, that's right. My father played the piano, and we
also had an old harmonium in a barn next to our house, where I'd
spend a lot of time just pedalling away hymns. I really loved their
melodies and harmonies and worked out for myself that a chord was made
from a minimum of three notes, and that by changing one of these notes
you could get completely different chords to work with the new note.
In a way, that started my interest in the way things could sound and
feel very different just by putting different chords to a tune. As the
harmonium got eaten up by mice, less and less of the stops that
selected the sounds worked, so naturally I turned my attention to
playing the piano.
     "I couldn't read music at all. It was really a question
of having a logical approach, once I knew where middle C was. Even
though I wasn't much good at maths at school, I could see the logic
of how the piano was working, and got on with it myself very well.
I've now been playing the piano for many years, and I really did
start off in the most basic way. After a couple of years I'd
got a slight style, and since then I've simply developed it more,
just by writing and then practising playing the songs. Often,
I'd be writing songs beyond my technique which would stretch
my playing even further."
     In the early days, did you write the lyrics first?
     "I usually started off with the tunes, and used library
books for a source of lyrics, but I couldn't get on too well
with the restriction of always fitting the music to the words.
So I started making my own lyrics up alongside the music."
     And then you became involved with dance?
     "Yes, but that didn't happen until I was seventeen,
because I didn't really get on with the dance teacher at school.
Once I'd left school I tried to get into a dance school full-time,
but no one would accept me as I had no qualifications in ballet. I had
almost given up the idea of using dance as an extension of my music,
until I met Lindsay Kemp, and that really did change so many of my
ideas. <This is, as far as I am aware, the only occasion inwhich
Kate explains that her ambition to merge her music with movement
_pre-dated_ her exposure to Kemp's work. Usually she simply credits Kemp
exclusively for her inspiration.> He was the first person to
actually give me some lessons in movement. I realized there was
so much potential with using movement in songs, and I wanted to get
a basic technique in order to be able to express myself fully.
     "Lindsay has his own style--it's more like mime--and
although he studied in many ballet schools and is technically
qualified as a dancer, his classes and style are much more to
do with letting go what's inside and expressing that. It
doesn't matter if you haven't perfect technique."
     Was the dance/movement approach just a novel visual image
for you, or did it actually help in the composing of songs?
     "The thing is, when I'm actually writing something,
I can't conceive the dance at the same time. But when I'm
listening and watching dance performances, I can conceive musical
ideas."
     There are several avenues of composing procedures open to you:
through the lyrics, the dance, the melodies, rhythms or harmoies,
or even the computer. Do you follow any particular one?
     "Since I first started writing, the styles and attitudes
have changed. Initially, it was just 'me and the piano,'
and I would write the song until it was completely finished--the
lyrics, the tune of one song would take me a couple of weeks.
For the last two albums <_Never_For_Ever_ and _The_Dreaming_>
it's been much looser, and I've been working with rhythm
machines as well as the keyboard, and using subject matter already
in my head. I'll then make up the music almost on the spot for
the subject matter."
     How did you get on with rhythm machines?
     "It took me quite a while to get used to working with them
because they seemed very limiting. I like rhythms to 'move',
especially in the ballad songs where the tempo would ebb and flow
with the words, stopping and slowing down as necessary.
Suddenly, having to work with a very strict rhythm, I found it almost
impossible at first to tie myself down to the rigid beat. Once I had
got used to this, I found that I could work _in_between_ the beats."
     One other aspect of your dance intrigues me, since you have
created a style that visually complements modern music, and that
is your own preferences and influences for dance styles in this
country and abroad.
     "I don't really avidly follow contemporary dance
styles--Lindsay Kemp definitely was the starting point for me,
although I like to think that I don't visually copy.
     What I try to do is work in front of mirrors--and then
without--whilst the music is playing, and see what happens. This
helps me to create my own choreography best. Obviously, a lot
of my movements come from my training--during that time Robin
Kovak certainly had a big influence on me at the Dance Centre.
She certainly gave me that strength to develop my own style.
     I now do my dance rehearing in a small studio room near
my home, and have a set group of dancers that I can call upon
to work with. My musicians haven't changed much either, that
work with me."
     Even from your _Lionheart_ album days there's
been a noticeable interest in unusual instruments: panpipes,
mandocello, strumento da porco, sitar, koto, balalaika, harmonica,
recorders, and musical saw.
     "Yes, that's because Paddy Bush <Kate's brother,
the middle of the three Bush siblings>, who has played on my
albums, has made a lot of instruments since he studied at the
London College of Furniture, specializing in mediaeval instruments.
Whenever he finds an instrument that doesn't appear to exist
that he likes--he'll make one, and learn to play it. Consequently,
it ends up on one of my tracks!
     Sounds are very important to me, and I think there are a lot
of standard instruments that don't actually sound that emotional
or that interesting, which is why it's really nice to have the
flavours of these other instruments. In so many cases they are not
used any more, and that means people don't recognize them, giving
an air of mystery to the music.
     Duncan MacKay introduced the synthesizer, Fender Rhodes, Prophet
and harpsichord in my songs. I've used the synthesizer in particular
because it was part of the new music at that time. I must admit
I'm now much less interested in synthesizers, especially since
the Fairlight CMI. I just find a lot of the sounds that perhaps
before were interesting a little too machine-like. What attracts
me to the Fairlight is its ability to create very human, animal,
emotional sounds that don't actually sound like a machine. I
think in a way that's what I've been waiting for.
     Richard Burgess of Landscape <a shortlived but musically
adventurous techno-pop duo of the late 1970s-early 1980s>
introduced me to the CMI at Syco Systems in London, and Steve
Payne, who works there, has helped me a great deal with it. I've
now got my own Fairlight which I use--the problem was, having met
the Fairlight on my last album _Never_For_Ever_ (played by Duncan
Mackay) I'd realized that it was invaluable for my music."
     Do you regard the CMI now as your most important
instrument?
     "In many ways it is, although I think piano still holds
above it because for me it's more versatile than any kind of
synthesizer. It's like an old friend in a way. Often a certain
sound that you want on a synthesizer for a particular piece can
be distracting when I'm composing, and it's nice to use
the piano instead, because it doesn't conjure anything up
in particular; then later translate those ideas to a synthesized
sound."
     Occasionally you've used the Yamaha CS80 polyphonic
synthesizer instead of the piano for your keyboard playing. Do you
get yourself involved in the technical intricacies of the instrument?
     "I would never say that I'm really that knowledgeable
about the CS80. I've mainly used it with the pre-set sounds.
What I like about it is its velocity/pressure keyboard sensitivity--it
makes it much more 'human' A lot of its sounds have more
emotion, too, perhaps from its dual sound-layering, although mainly
it's the touch sensitivity."
     Can you read music now?
     "No, I can't--I read chords, but not the actual music."
<Kate's answer here contradicts other, fuller ones she has given
on earlier occasions. In describing her own transcription of one of her
arrangements for Fairlight strings into notation for real stringplayers
to read, she explained that she _could_ read and write music--
--that she had learned when, as a child, she had taken up the violin
for a time--but that writing notation was painfully slow work for her,
and that she only did it when the musicians required written
music. See the Swales interview, _The_Garden_, Volume 2, p. 99.>
     So how do you arrange all the instrumental and vocal parts
in your songs?
     "For most of them I literally just run the tape and learn
them in my head, and then translate them. I multi-track my own
voice parts, having worked them out first at home. Sometimes
I can tell that they're going to work in harmony without
having to put one down and then work to that, but it depends,
really."
     Do you work up from the root and then add the third and the
fifth?
     "No, I never work that way--I just go for what sound right,
and never think technically about thirds and fifths, because very
often I think fourths and sixths could be better. I like to use
parallel movement for a more medeiaeval feel <Kate Bush,
Polyphonist!>, and I also sing unrelated notes against the
harmony--say, dropping semitones--which helps to create a lot of
tension. But I do try to avoid thinking about the technical things
when I'm working--it's afterwards that I like to think about
those aspects.
     "For the male voice parts, I just sing to them what I want
them to do, and I tell them the particular phraseology and timing.
Then they go out and do it, while I oversee it in the mixing room.
I'm lucky in that they're not really session singers, but
more friends with good voices."
     There's a lot of counterpoint in your compositions. Do you
find this comes naturally?
     "Yes, it's something that I find works in layers
as well. For example, normally the song, with its basic tune and
chords, would be down, and then, as things start to go on more to
the track, I can just hear holes that need to be filled in a certain
way.
     "Sometimes I would be doing this with tapes at home or during
a meal break at the studio. I'd go round and round parts of the
tape and sing with it."
     So your procedure is to compose the piece on the piano with the
lyrics and have some definite ideas for performing it at home.
     "For the actual tune; whilst any additional harmonies would
be added afterwards using a tape with the basic piece on it. I use
a Revox half-track machine to sing along with--I never put it down
through at this stage--I just sing with it to see if it works.
Really, it's for playback, to help me, and I would use an
eight-track studio for demos. I've also been using the Teac
Portastudio 144, which I find useful."
     Do you have any set way of composing your harmonies?
     "None at all, it depends completely on the song. Whatever
the song's saying, then that little hole in there that's waiting for a
harmony needs something special. For example, in the _Hammer_Horror_
song, I thought out the clashing harmonies carefully, and the _Violin_
piece came about because that was the only instrument I was ever
taught." <Does this indicate that Kate composed _Violin_ _on_ the
violin?>
     Your vocal melodies are very original and there's a
recognizable style of swooping pitch glissandos, acciaccatura vocal
decoration plus a preference for third/root jumps. Then of course you
have an extremely wide pitch range.
     "In fact, I've stretched the pitch range over the years.
What I used to do in my earlier performing was to go for
notes higher than I could reach easily in the song, so by the time
I'd written the song and played it for a good few days, I could
actually reach those notes. By making my writing more acrobatic than
I was, I was stretching myself to it. It's something that's
grown over the years. Definitely my voice has got stronger in the last
two years, because on _The_Dreaming_ I was so aware of the difference
in my voice. Not only is it much stronger, but it is also more
controlled.
     "It has been frustrating for me in the past because my
voice has never sounded the way I wanted it to, and so whenever I
was listening to the albums it was unbearable for me. It was not
just the weakness, but the style, of it. I've always tried to
get my voice the way it's starting to be now. Because the songs
always controlled me, they were always tending to be in a higher
range. It sounds strange, but I think that when you write songs,
very often you don't have control of them. You can guide them,
but they have their own life force, really.
     "My use of decorative notes probably comes from Irish
music. My mother's Irish, and in my childhood my brothers were
very into traditional music and we could hear it in the house all
the time. The airs and inflections are beautifyl, and I love
Irish singing. On the _Night_of_the_Swallow_ <track> Liam
O'Flynn plays the Uillean pipes and the penny whistle, to
give the track an Irish flavour.
     "I think my use of thirds is because in a lot of songs
there are times when I want it to sound like someone actually talking
than singing. There are things that you say that often people don't
put into songs, and I quite like to use those lines. Quite often
when people speak they naturally use the 'third-to-root'
pitch-change in their voices--little tension marks that take it up a
couple of tones."
     Another interesting aspect of your singing style is the way
you change your voice tone.
     "I purposely try to do that because I do feel that every
song comes from a different person, really, so this is one way
of making something different about it. I like to 'create'
voices. I've been trying this over the years. I often find that I
do 'word painting' without realizing, and my singing/speech
style probably comes from the Irish influence again.
     "Sometimes I don't think the words are important,
and I'll just use sound shapes, which establish the mood.
The lyrics of the lead vocal are awfully important to me, while the
backing vocals are very often just trying to create a picture--as in
_The_Dreaming_, with 'Na-na-cha chan cha cha--'. <This is the original
interviewer's transcription. Perhaps Kate actually said
something like 'me-me-me-me-me, t-t-t-t-t, i-i-i-i-i--'.>
     "I hardly ever use the Vocoder--only once for a tiny effect on
_Babooshka_ to make the drum sound like the title. <This is no longer
true. Kate has spoken about using the Vocoder more often for _Hounds_
_of_Love_ and _The_Sensual_World_ albums.>
     "We've been experimenting a lot with effects
units--particularly the flanger, to get different textures with
the voices. In several of the songs there are at least four or five
layers of voices. In order to have them not sounding like one
clump, we've had to try and separate them by treating them
and placing them carefully in the stereo field. Some have more reverb
or more echo than others, too."
     Listening to your past albums, you seem to like running verses
into choruses, without the more usual "here comes the chorus"
feeling. <Absolutely true, but--as the interviewer says--mainly
in the early songs. One could even argue that the opposite is true
in Kate's recent work, in that she now often inserts a characteristic
Kate Bush bridge structure, which she calls the "pre-choral
refrain", between verse and chorus.>
     "Yes, I suppose so. But you see, for me, I know where
all the choruses are because they're so obvious to me, although
it's interesting you say that. It's quite likely, too,
that people say they can't dance to my music at parties or
discos, but of course, I can dance to it, so it doesn't bother
me.
     "The only person I've met who is really into the
same kind of approach to playing as I do is Peter Gabriel. He seems
to be working 'behind the scenes' in a similar way--he's
going for the emotional content of the music and lyrics, and he
changes his voice. As for my use of local vibrato: if there's
a song that needs it, I'll put it in. I have used a
choirboy's voice (it was Richard Thornton) to get a different
feeling on _All_the_Love_."
     During mixing do you consider spatial placement of sounds in
relation to your obviously spatial dance movements?
     "No, I don't think that far, really, but that's
a nice audio thing when I'm working out the dance. I do place
the sounds--certainly moreso on this new album, since it's
the first one I have produced myself. And anyway it't the first
time I've known enough to do that."
     Do you "chorus" your voice a lot?
     "We have used delay machines for this on a couple of tracks,
and added a very slight harmonizer effect, as well as sometimes very
tight double tracking. It really does depend on the song, and how strong
the lead vocal needs to be. For a more delicate song it would be
wrong to put a heavy harmonizer on it--it would sound so affected.
<Could she have said 'effected' here?> We've
also been using an awful lot of compression on the new album--with
nearly everything, in fact. It's interesting, the kind of
dynamics you can actually create, which is what I really never
understood before. Especially with voices: as you start compressing
them more and more, so many different levels start coming through
on it--the breath particularly. And for me, that's as important
as the words: it's the space in between."
     In _All_the_Love_ the "sighs" seem to be important in this way.
     "Yes, it's the idea of using the breath as a voice.
There was another backing vocal sung by our engineer, and it's
fantastic, because in the gaps there are these huge passages
of him going 'haahuuh!' where you can feel the breath
moving past."
     Which studios have you recorded in?
     "Normally I've recorded between Air and Abbey Road
Studios, but this time I seemed to make the album at studios where
I had to grab time between other major artists, because I wanted
particular facilities. We worked at the Townhouse, Abbey Road,
Odyssey Studios, and did the digital mix at Advision Studios with
Paul Hardiman using the Sony machine. The final recording wasn't
digital, even though I would prefer to do it that way. Editing
with the digital recorder did seem to be difficult--some things
were quicker, but others were eaily three times as long."
     Does your music require a lot of editing?
     "It really did this time, especially when you've
got mixes that are very complicated and demanding. We'd
get the whole mix and there'd be one little bit that wasn't
quite right, or an echo plate would distort on us. Then we'd
just have to edit that in.
Having got the whole field right, it seems crazy to do
a whole track again, so we prefer to do spot edits."
     What's your procedure for recording?
     First we do all the backing tracks in one go, and then
we'd worki on it in layers until we'd got all the other
musicians out of the way, so then I can really concentrate on
my own stuff. It took weeks to do the vocals, especially because
we were having to find the right effects and ambience for each
voice. Then on top of that came the Fairlight."
     Did you work on the Fairlight at home?
     "Yes. I did as much work at home as I could, but it got
very difficult because I was usuallly in the studio all day, and when
I got back at night there were tapes of that day's stuff that
I would listen to in order to decide what to go on to the next
day. So in fact I wasn't really getting much time, and when I
could, I'd tend to do the Fairlight in studio mealbreaks in the
control room.
     "I suppose I could have done tracks like _The_Dreaming_
with a large amount of Fairlight, but it does lack a little top
for some sounds, and there are some things, like loops, that can
be tricky to do. I ended up using three or four of the presets
available on the Fairlight's menu, while most of the others
were sampled. What we tended to do was try samples at home,
although they would often be too noisy to use, so we'd
then do them again in the studio. I have to be honest about
the instrument--I really only have a working knowledge, and
everything I want to do I can. I love the sampling facility, it's
one of the best things--being able to put your own sounds in and
then play around with them. Features like the revers play are
useful too. There's loads I can't do yet, I'm sure,
but I'm taking it step by step."
     I would have thought the Fairlight was almost a "trademark"
for you, because it can conjure up aural images while you're
making the visual dance movements.
     "Absolutely, it does work so well for me. As an educational
instrument, too, it's fantastic. Initially, I thought a lot
about buying one because it was so much money. When I started
this album I did try hiring one in, but it was costing me so
much, and I knew that to do everything I wanted I'd need
it more or less all the time, so I decided to buy it, and haven't
regretted it once. I'm also interested in the new rhythm facilities
now available." <All of this is in reference to the Fairlight CMI Series II
machine. Keference to the Fairlight CMI Series II machine. Kate later
machine. Kate later graduated to the Series III, and she now owns
at least three Fairlights in all. Also, she has more recently discussed
her use of the Fairlight both in composing and arranging songs,
not only as a sampling device in the studio.>
     "Coming back to _The_Dreaming_, we certainly enjoyed using real
sounds, as well. The title track in particular has Rolf Harris on
the dijeridu, Percy Edwards doing animal noises, bullroaring from
Paddy Bush and crowd noises by Gosfield Goers!"
     Which drum machine do you use?
     "I've got a Linn drum machine, which is very good for
demos, but I don't like it to be used in the finished thing. I
think you can tell it's the Linn--it's got a very specific
sound--and I can often recognize it on the radio.
     "Some particular sounds that might stand out are the
osq.car crash', which was a 'screech' on the Fairlight;
plus several recorded 'bangs' mixed together. It was in
fact the engineer's car door miked up! <'Bang! goes
another kanga...> There's also fluttering birds, and an orchestra
chord sampled on _The_Dreaming_ track, and plenty of others
elsewhere.
     "I like to be involved with everything that's going
on the album, and I do have a lot of interest in the technical
problems that crop up as well--that's really happened over the
last couple of years. In a way, the technical side of what is
happening is as inspirational as what you get out of it."
     The new album has a stronger voice feel to it, and plenty
of variety in the percussion.
     "There has always been plenty of vocal activity at heart
before, it's just that it's never actually manifested itself
as such. As for drums, it's basically a drum kit, and for a couple
of songs other things like Chinese drums, military bass drum and
African drums are used. The other interesting instrument used on
_The_Dreaming_ is the dijeridu, played by Rolf Harris. He is
such a good player, and a real honour to work with."
     I like the use of silence and space in your music.
     "I've begun to value silence much more because...I think
even from the start I realized silence is as important as the notes.
But actually getting your songs to realize that is so much harder,
and also knowing where to put the silence. Again, this album is
probably the first one that has actually let silence into it. The
bass lines are kept fairly 'dry', which helps, too. And
my piano playing is never over-busy. It probably couldn't be,
though, my technique holds me back quite a lot there! I use the
synthesizer for things that I definitely want to hear, so I will
specifically ask for that. But again in a lot of cases, maybe
I've asked them to do something, and while they're mucking
around I'll pick on another sound that's so good we'll
go with that.
     "The LP for me has been quite fulfilling. I feel I have
made a step forward, which is always great for one artistically,
obviously. And I suppose one of the things that I do feel pleased
about is perhaps that I feel we've got a sense of the emotional
value from each song to have come across in some way. It was very
emotionally demanding, especially some of the tracks, because of
the subject matter. It's taken a year to put together, with
a lot of studio time taken up. It was actually finished in May,
but we felt it was better to release it in the autumn--but it's
really such a long time to wait.
     "While working on the album I can't possibly work
on the dance as well, and I've got very unfit over the last
year. A few weeks ago I started again in complete agony! But
I'm not so stiff now, and we're getting the dances done. We've not
planned any concerts yet--I wanted another two albums before I could
tour them again. Now I've got that with _Never_For_Ever_ and _The_
_Dreaming_, so it'll be nice to do another tour. The big problem is the
dance as well as the singing when performing, as this does put a
lot of extra pressure on me personally--but the determination alone
to do the show always keeps me going.
     "I would like to mention that it's interesting to
do this interview, because the music for me is, of course, the
most important thing. I feel it's what I know most about, and
although I'm into dancing, it's much more a matter of using
my ideas for that. With the music, it's been part of me for a
long time, and I'm really looking forward to the music that
instruments like the Fairlight will bring in the next few years."

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