IED gets his comeuppance, again; and misK. mailbag items

[IED0DXM%OAC.UCLA.EDU@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]

 > Date: Thu, 1 Sep 88 09:36 CDT
 > From: "Liz Owens, Microcomputer Product Center, 491-3889"
 >       <BABOOSHKA@nuacc.acns.nwu.edu>
 > Subject: More on Gaffa and the like....

 >     Fellas, fellas, fellas--this is *not* a boxing ring.  I get the
 > feeling that Doug (forgive me, I'm using a Mac and can't figure out
 > how you get the first part of your foofy "D") and IED are drawing
 > blood here. That is not why we are here, kids.

     Your concern is appreciated, Liz. IED doesn't know how |>oug
feels, but IED harbors no animus toward our Pseudo-Moderator. He and
IED have had a lot of these heated, sometimes-mudslinging debates in
Love-Hounds over the years, yet we maintain courteous, even cordial
relations outside the group. |>oug must be unusually slow to take
offense. He must have figured out Kate's secret for maintaining those
"positive energies".

 > The door to the garden (a ROSE garden) is hidden UNDER THE IVY.
 > I'm still working on this idea.

     Please continue, Auntie Lizoo. IED is crazy for Frances Hodgson
Burnett, but never thought of going back to the text to look for such
direct connections. Great idea, and a good possibility.  There is at
least one reference to another subject, as well, however.
     Just finished reading _Little_Lord_Fauntleroy_, _Sarah_Crewe_,
and one or two others, also by Burnett, this summer. Extremely
affecting.

 > IED, if you keep sending me such fulsome compliments, I may ask you
 > to bear my children. You turn my head.

    But isn't it some kind of sin to sleep with one's own auntie,
Lizoo? Actually, though, the idea turns IED on. He's ALL YOURS,
Lizooshka, Lizooshka, Lizooshka-ya-ya!

 > I managed to round out my Kate Bush collection... now have all Bush
 > on CD.  Very nice addition to the library.

 > -- b.bum

     Nice? NICE???!!!

 > IED, I'm curious about this quiz for the WSI.  Can I get more info?

     IED would like to oblige, but there's not much to add. No further
clues for the quiz itself, that wouldn't be fair. The WSI is the
Wickham Street Irregulars, a group which to date can count two members
among its ranks. It is therefore officially no longer imaginary-- just
inactive. The organisation's new by-laws were recently published in
Love-Hounds. The original purpose of the WSI was to encourage the
submission of imaginative works of prose which offer novel
interpretations of Kate's art _without_ dependence upon factual or
textual support. In other words, through its proposed irregular
quarterly the WSI would foster the creation and communication of a new
and ever-expanding world of Kate-inspired but _not_ Kate-dependent
culture. It was intended to offer thereby an alternative to all
current fanzines/books/computer fora, which thus far have tended
inevitably to concern themselves with the factual, literal truth
surrounding Kate (a kind of truth which IED feels has a definite place
and time, and does not mean to criticize here). In order to assure the
seriousness of the members, however, it was thought necessary to
require applicants to pass an entrance exam, one which demands a
considerable knowledge of the factual side of Kate's work and life.
This is completely inconsistent with the avowed goals of the
WSI--which makes sense, in a WSI sort of way.
     Actually, however, anyone who takes the trouble to inquire or to
take the exam, no matter what their score, will be welcome to join the
WSI...especially you, Lizoo, darling!
     Also, all the above high aspirations about a WSIQ have been
indefinitely shelved in favour of the new order of business as set
forth in the by-laws: namely, getting together and drinking a lot; and
in the event that no meeting is possible, just getting drunk on our
own.

 > As far as I can tell, the whispered words are along the lines of:
 > "Tiefer, tiefer, irgenwo na tiefer, gibt es ein licht."

   That's "Tiefer, tiefer! Ergendwo in der Tiefe gibt es ein Licht."

 > ...I can't wait until we discuss the meaning behind the word "the"
 > in the title of Man with the Child...

     Well, has anyone noticed how Kate alternates between capitalizing
the "the" and leaving it uncapitalized (in some of the Newsletters)?
This may be a significant fact...

 > But seriously, I generally agree with IED's opinion's over |>oug's,
 > but the facts are there in black and white.  Sorry, IED about
 > *this* one, but you are absolutely correct about the last verse of
 > There Goes A Tenner.  So sleep well.

    IED thanks you very much for the support, Douglas, and holds no
grudge for your printing Kate's own comments re "Gaffa" -- quite the
contrary.  IED has no doubts any longer about the basic meaning of the
word, and he will no longer bother the Love-Hounds about possible
additional meanings, or Kate's taste for double-meanings, since he has
obviously been bested. Let him only caution the group (and even |>oug
may share this sentiment) not to assume that Kate's answers about
"what her songs mean" must be taken as complete explanations.  It's
very likely that "Gaffa" means what she says and only what she says.
But that should not prevent anyone (Craig P., for instance) from
seeking out the Japanese term for purgatory, because that might just
lead somewhere promising, as well. After all, such a hidden
double-meaning would not be too clever or subtle for Kate to have
intended it.
     At this point the "Gaffa" question has been settled -- IED admits
defeat. Out of courtesy to Craig, however, his suggestion of a
possible hidden meaning of "Gaffa" might at least be considered, if
only as a beautiful idea.
     It's very interesting to consider the imagery in the _video_ for
"Suspended" in connection with the concept of purgatory: doesn't the
shot of Kate's character twirling around in an empty, starry space
look a lot like a depiction of a soul in limbo? And doesn't the
"purgatory" idea also go a long way toward explaining the setting of
the old, dilapidated barn, through which can be seen both sunlight and
a fierce storm?
     OK, that's all. Nary another word from IED re "Gaffa" in
Love-Hounds. Future talk of Japanese Gaffas -- and all other varieties
-- will be confined to the pages of the WSIQ.

 > I hope to see something else discussed now, like the images of "Sat
 > In Your Lap", the point of view of "Symphony in Blue", or a
 > comparison between Joyce's "The Dead" and "My Lagan Love".

     Not so fast! We were just beginning to consider the "the"
in "The Man With the Child in His Eyes"!

 > I'd also like to see Ne T'en Fuis Pas get credit as the best thing
 > that Kate (or anybody else, for that matter) has ever put on vinyl.

     IED used to think that, too -- till _HoL_ came out.

 > I have never met anyone so pompous as to suggest to an artist TO
 > HER FACE that he knows more about her songs than she does.

     That's a really tough way to look at |>oug's interview. When IED
looks back on his own encounter with Kate (not more than ten days
later than |>oug's, though a continent away), he is much less inclined
to trash |>oug for what were undeniably some poor word-choices on his
part. What |>oug says is true: IED would (and did) make just as big a
fool of himself in Kate's presence as |>oug did -- his foolishness
just didn't happen to manifest itself in quite the same way, that's
all. All Kate Bush fans beware before casting the first stone:
considering God in the abstract is relatively easy, but actually
carrying on a conversation with Her in the flesh is not. And whether
|>oug's attitude was "conceited" or not, he definitely got an
interesting and revealing response from Kate, and that in itself is a
kind of vindication of the argument (which IED espouses) that
journalists who interview Kate, for all their dispassionate
savoir-faire in the crunch, would be better replaced by jumpy,
scared-as-hell Kate fans; in the long run, we'd all learn a lot more
about her and her art.  |>oug's tactics may have been miscalculated,
but his intentions were right on the money.

 >> me of my high school English teacher.  And I think you're
 >> wrong...I have to agree with Andrew Marvick's interpretation of
 >> the last two verses of "There Goes A Tenner".  He seems to have a
 >> much more sound theory.

 >  Well, it's you and IED that are wrong.  There's absolutely nothing
 >  in the song or the video to suggest the passing of large amounts
 >  of time inbetween the verses.  When she says, "Ooh, I
 >  remember...", the obvious and straightforward reading, is the
 >  obvious and straigtforward reading: that she is talking about the
 >  past.  Not that suddenly twenty years have whipped by without any
 >  indication whatsoever, and this past she's remembering is really
 >  the future.  That's a lame theory.  It is complicated,
 >  unnecessary, and doesn't explain anything that can't be explained
 >  by a simpler theory.

     You're probably right, |>oug, and yet it does explain a few
things a bit _better_ than the conventional interpretation. IED
doesn't think the obvious and straightforward interpretation is wrong.
It's just that that simpler reading never quite sat with him when it
came to the last verses. His own interpretation is only slightly
different, after all. And he'd like to make it clear that in IED's
version the narrator isn't exactly "suddenly remembering the future."
It was hard for IED to explain his conception of the passage of time
in that song, and he seems to have been unclear. What he suggests is
simply that the final scene of the story might be understood as taking
place at a later time, following the completion of a prison term for
the burglary. But this is no more "future" than either of the two
preceding time frames, beginning with the scene of the burglary itself
and continuing with the scene of the interrogation. Now it may be that
|>oug feels the "interrogation" is only being _anticipated_ by the
hero/heroine during the confusion following the accident with the
gelignite, but IED sees no reason why the lines about "getting nothing
from me," etc., couldn't equally well be the thoughts of the criminal
following his/her arrest, even during an interrogation. Looked at in
this way, the next logical stage of the story -- taking into account
the hero/heroine's decision in the interrogation scene _not_ to tell
them anything, including the location of the rest of the gang (at
least some of whom may have got away with the swag) -- the next
logical stage of the story would be the criminal's experience when
he/she finally gets out and meets up with the gang. In this way the
fact that the currency is of an obsolete design/denomination would
indeed be truly remarkable, as it seems to be in the song. IED admits
that it's more complicated and tortuous than the conventional
interpretation, but isn't it a bit pigheaded to dismiss it out of hand
as "wrong"? As for |>oug's statement that there's nothing to indicate
the passage of "large amounts" of time between the verses, IED would
like to know how it is that |>oug knows the length of time that each
of the "We're waiting" sections are meant to indicate? Would you also
maintain, |>oug, that the recurring, highly emphatic references to the
monotony of waiting cannot have more significance than your own
interpretation allows?

 > Well, as Einstein said, great minds will always face opposition
 > from mediocre ones.  At least I have a Philosophy degree from MIT
 > to prove that I may not be as stupid as you think.  How are you
 > going to prove to me that you're not as stupid as you seem?
 > -- |>oug

     Not that he wants to suggest that you're stupid, |>oug, because
obviously that's untrue; but really, you don't mean to suggest that an
MIT degree in philosophy is "proof" of intelligence?  Michael, for all
his tragic delusions about the quality of "AC/DC", comes off in his
posting as passionate about Kate, not "stupid". Why should he have to
"prove" his "intelligence" by waving a credential from an expensive
private university?

 > Just one more thing before I go...is there anybody out there with
 > all of Kate's CD's who would be willing to make a tape for me?  I'd
 > be more than willing to reimburse you for the price of the tape and
 > postage.  If so, E-Mail me directly, and I'll give you details.
 > Thanks a lot.

     IED was feeling very warm toward you, Michael, till he read this.
If you like Kate Bush's music, make the investment: go out and buy her
albums!
     _Especially_ if you bought "AC/DC's" last CD unheard! It's time
you got your priorities straightened out.
     Sorry, Ant in London, but IED has to side with |>oug on this
backwards message issue. In a way, of course, you're right: in "Leave
It Open", for example, Kate's initial idea for the _music_ of the
"backwards" message was almost certainly a melodic one: after all, she
took a much more painstaking and artistically deliberate route to the
creation of the melodic idea for the "We let the weirdness in" line
than, say, Harrison (? Lennon?)  did for the backwards guitar in some
of the _Revolver_ tracks. In the Beatles's case the musicians just
shot more or less haphazardly for guitar riffs that _turned_out_ to
sound good when played backwards in synch with the forwards tracks.
But in Kate's case, making the decision to _learn_ the backwards
sounds of the _words_ "We let the weirdness in" was a way of
permitting her to suit those "backwards" sounds to a _preconceived_
melodic structure. In fact, she probably put the line into the music
in a normal forwards voice to begin with, just so as to get the melody
exactly right; then later adapted her "backwards(/forwards)" ideas to
that already-composed idea.
     But that's a long way from saying that she didn't place
importance in the concept of the secret message itself. Of course she
did! The music "sounded right" that way, but making a secret message
_out_of_that_music_ had little to do with the music itself.  It's
pretty obvious by Kate's actions since the "Leave It Open" contest
that she genuinely enjoys the concept of the secret message for its
own sake, as well as for its effectiveness as a carrier of a serious
artistic, intellectual or (as in the case of "Leave It Open")
ideological concept.

 > By the way ... what DOES IED stand for ?????

     Well, maybe _that's_ a secret backwards message, too. Remember,
though, it might not be a simple backwards spelling. It might be a
triple-extended double-loop envelope, or something. IED's advice is to
alter your Walkman so it plays tapes backwards, then tape your voice
saying "I-E-D, I-E-D, I-E-D..." v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y for at least
forty-five minutes, and then play the tape back at half-speed, marking
each point where you _think_ you hear a funny kind of 's' sound. Then
when you've got that isolated, get a tape splicer and splice that part
out, re-inserting it _upside-down_ into the same spot on the tape.
Finally, get out the latest scholarly volume on the connotations of
the phonetic sound "ied" in ancient Shinto ritual and related concepts
of purgatory. If you do all that, you might be surprised by the
positive energies in the vibe.
     Thank you, Kari, very much for your latest update about "Sister
and Brother". Much appreciated. Incidentally, "Sister and Brother" is
not the lead-off single for "The Answer" LP. The first 12" came out a
week ago, and it doesn't contain that track. Maybe it'll be the
follow-up single, however.

 > Do you think <Kate>'d really be flattered by all this adolescent
 > fantasising?  (I don't know, perhaps you ARE adolescents, in which
 > case congratulations on discovering Kate Bush at such tender years
 > :-)

     IED is no adolescent...alas. He's approximately Kate's age.  Kate
might follow the tongue-in-cheek tone of many of Love-Hounds's
postings (even a few of IED's) a bit better than you seem to, good
Plumsteader. And |>oug, she does too follow Love-Hounds.  You have no
faith! She's got a secret spy network carefully monitoring Love-Hounds
discussions and giving her weekly minutes of the latest hot issues. In
fact, you wait and see if there isn't a posting from her this week,
ridiculing IED's idea of "Gaffa" being a place-name.

 > does seem a shame at times.  After all, impressive as _HoL_ sounds,
 > what is "The Ninth Wave" but 10 minutes of music and 10 minutes of
 > sound effects?

 > -- brian

 >    [ Well, I'm sure that there are those who will agree with you,
 >      but you are doomed to spend three eons in the MOR purgatory
 >      unless you repent, ye sinners.  So I, Pope of the First Church
        of Kate, do decree. -- |>oug ]

     You risk excommunication from the West Coast Kateo-crucian
diocese, your worshipfulness. _TKI_, despite whatever limitations its
arranger/producer saddled it with, is _definitely_ no MOR album.
Brian's conclusion that _TKI_ is "better" is highly disputable, but
there can be little dissent over the general observation he makes
concerning the warmth, innocence and spontaneity of _TKI_ vs. _TD_ and
_HoL_. Whether these qualities are to be valued above the virtues of
the two most recent albums is, however, a big question. As for
_The_Ninth_Wave_ being "10 minutes music and ten minutes sound
effects" -- well, that's just silly. Sorry, Bri.

 > Do we think that Kate's b-sides and soundtrack work will ever (i.e.
 > soon) appear together on CD?  Wouldn't they be nice there at the
 > end of her next album?  Please, please, please...

     ICE reports that EMI is considering the release of some early
Kate singles in CD-single form eventually. Expect CD -versions of "Be
Kind to My Mistakes", "The Magician of Lublin" and "Brazil" -- oh, say
about the same time Kate releases KBLVIII.
     Anyway, she couldn't fit all her b-sides, etc., on the end of
KBVI even if they wanted. And if they could, where would they put the
_new_ b-sides?

 > having this worldwide network of Love-Hounds to learn from.  Keep up
 > the good work all!
 >                            marK

 > Mark Champine     ...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!champine

     Welcome, welcome, Mark...Just for the record, marK T. ganzer,
though not recently a contributor, is still very much a Love-Hound,
and probably has proprietary precedence regarding the spelling.  Hail
th'Ganz!

 > It was in the Bay of Biscay her gallant ship did plow

    Not "our gallant ship"?  There are various written versions of the
lyrics, and Kate's differs from all of them in a few tiny particulars,
perhaps including this one?

 >  One night among the sailors was a fearful floorin' row

     Both the Gordon Bok and the Martin Carthy versions have "flyin'"
or "flurryin'" here. Kate seems to be using "flyin'", though perhaps
with a bit of an Irish twist to the pronunciation.

 > What is the choir singing in "HE"?  This may have some relevance as
 > well.

 > [ The choir in "Hello Earth" is singing something right out of the
 >   Werner Herzog movie, "Nasferatu".  I doubt Kate picked it for the
 >   words.  IED knows more about this.  -- |>oug ]

     Maybe, but it's still nothing. After considerable research in
quest of the meaning of the "words" in the Nosferatu chorus, and even
the making of inquiries in letters to the arranger and the conductor,
respectively, of the track, IED has come to the conclusion that it's
highly unlikely that Kate ever found out what the words of the
original chorus actually are saying, or even that she ever got more
than an approximation of the original phonetics. No one has yet traced
the original recording, and the credits in the movie itself are very
vague. They apparently attribute the recording (but with no
identification of the music itself) to a "group" called Zinzkarol,
which IED (with extreme hesitancy) suggests might translate more or
less as "Gypsy Chorale". Beyond that he was unable to track the scent.
It's interesting that Kate thanks both Herzog and Florian Fricke in
the _HoL_ liner-notes, indicating that she made careful inquiries into
the origin of the music. It turns out, however, that Popol Vuh, though
the official composers of the film's soundtrack, did not compose or
record the particular bit of music in question.

 > German quotation... but my theory now is that the hidden message,
 > the "HE" quotation, and possibly the choir's words in "HE", are all
 > taken from some German poem.  If this can be located, surely it
 > will have a major impact on our understanding of _The Ninth Wave_
 > as a whole!

     A nice idea, Jamie, but not, unfortunately, one that is borne out
by the few facts we have. By all means keep trying, however. We could
use some fresh ideas.
     Welcome, Sarah Tomich! Wow! A second female in Love-Hounds.

 > Although, I have not had a chance to check, the good sound quality
 > and the production indicate that it is just a rip-off from the
 > Hammersmith Odeon video.

     That's for sure. _A_Bird_in_the_Hand_ is arguably the least
worthwhile of all KT boots. Not only is it just a rip-off from the
Hammersmith video, but it's even _missing_ three tracks from the
video!

 > Does IED or |>oug or anyone have any ideas?  Is anyone else
 > interested in doing this?

 > PS: Pardon my ignorance but what is IED?)
 > -- /kohn/brian.c   AT&T Bell Laboratories Semantic Engineering Center

     Re /kohn/brian.c's suggestion about getting info on Tour of Life
II in advance: Yes, others are definitely interested. There are
problems, however. First, if Kate undertakes to tour, she will
probably make at least a couple of U.S. appearances. If that turns out
to be the case, a plan to make a group trek overseas would lose its
sense of urgency real quick. As for finding out in time to get
concert/airplane-tickets, don't worry, we'll find out in time.
     Finally, getting time off from work is everybody's personal
problem.  Forget the career, friend, this is KATE BUSH we're talking
about.

 >  Do you want Kate to call you up on the phone and
 >  say, "Yes, Andrew, "Gaffa" is gaffer's tape!"?

     Ooh, yeah! That would be great! Can you arrange it?

 > When I tried to digitize and play "We let the weirdness in"
 > backwards, I heard "They said they were buried here." pretty
 > distinctly.  Anyone else tried this?

     Yes. Several fans have tried this.

 > And has anyone ever posted a complete list of whispered lyrics in
 > "Suspended"?

 >   [ Sure.  Just yesterday I did.  -- |>oug ]

    Are you quite sure those were the _complete_ whispered lyrics, |>oug?

 >  For now does ride in on the curl of a wave

    Sure that's not "_doves_ ride in on the curl of a wave"?

 > I recently heard a copy of a compilation tape of some of Kate's lesser
 > known songs, thanks to IED.
 > Anyway, among the treasures was "Maybe," from the first recording
 > session on a sunny afternoon at Dave's.
 > Anyone got a transcription of that song?  I can only make out parts of
 > it.
 > -- Douglas Weiman

     IED never could make out any more than a couple of words from
that song. Anyone else have better results?

 > I'm wary of starting another years-long backwards/forwards debate,
 > but does anybody know what the bit of dropped-in vocals at the
 > beginning of "This Woman's Work" are? -- Brian

     Sorry, Brian, no idea yet. Theory is it comes from dialogue in
the movie, probably from the delivery scene. IED hasn't seen the movie
a second time yet, though, so he can't be sure. Film comes out on
video at the end of this month, though, so this problem should be
cleared up then.

-- Andrew Marvick