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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 89 00:26:46 EDT
From: Jon Drukman <jsd@GAFFA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jon Drukman's theories L&A
> I disagree, Jon. This could possibly be a "Teen Suicide: Don't Do It" song. Consider the lines "What would we do without you?" "You might not think so now ... someone will come to help you."
I don't really see much support of that theory. The chorus, which presumably contains the "kernel" of the song (as it is repeated a lot) says: "Take away the love and the anger, and the little piece of rope (hope) holding us together..." which says to me that to "let go of these feelings" is the end of the relationship, because you gotta have LOVE and ANGER to have a vital relationship. Once the strong emotions are gone (even if they are negative, such as anger), then you just don't care about the other person anymore -- I had a litle chat like this with my last girlfriend. I said, "Even if you hate me, I don't care, because it means you have a strong emotion for me." (OK, I'm a bit of a drip, but I was in love, so show some respect, you clods!)
"It cuts so deep that you don't think that you can speak about it." This says to me that we're back in Running Up That Hill land. Communication is still a problem. Open up! Even if you have negative feeligs, you must let them out! (This is a recurring theme in KT work, so I think I'm justified in presuming it here.)
"We're building a house of the future..." And how can a house be built on shaky (not completely open) foundations? "Don't think that you can't ever change the past and the future." Explain how you were feeling at the time! TALK!
I read the "you might not think so now" lines in line with the comments I have made above. Don't be fooled by the appallingly happy and oh-so-catchy music. I think this song has much in common with RUTH...
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 89 03:50:56 EST
From: reynhout@wpi.wpi.edu (Andrew
Reynhout)
Subject: The Fog
After listening to The Fog six or ten (hundred) times now, something occurred to me: Right after daddy says "Just put your feet down child" the SECOND time, there are seagulls mixed in. I heard it and immediately connected it to Watching You Without Me (where the seagulls occur in the last 30sec or so of the song, just before KT lunges into the "Talk to me Listen to me Talk to me" weirdness.)
The odd thing, though, is that they sound IDENTICAL, with a higher eq on about 4khz (on The Fog). Any comments?
Andrew
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 90 12:16:12 -0600
From: Michael Mendelson <mendel@cs.uiuc.edu>
Subject: father loved ones brothers
Sensual Jennifer writes:
In "The Morning Fog":
I'll tell my mother
I'll tell my
father
I'll tell my loved one
I'll tell my brothers
I've always wondered about this. It seems to be almost a blatant reference to Kate herself as the protaganist. Usually, she keeps herself separate from her song personae, but here she really seems to indicate that it is *her*! Is this not something of a rarity among Katia? Other than songs like Them Heavy People and All The Love and possibly a couple of early songs, this seems to be as clear a self-reference (indirect perhaps) as any in Kate lore. Or does sisters just not fit the rhyme scheme? :-)
-mjm
From: jburka@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka)
Date: 16 Jun 90
04:41:32 GMT
Subject: re: "The Fog"
I have, however, noticed something similar. My favorite "pet-peeve concerning the production of TSW" is the high-pitched whine that accompanies the sample of Kate's father on "The Fog."
Whenever Mr Bush speaks (and I don't mean the 'kindler and gentler' one), there's a very annoying high-pitched tone that begins just before the vox, and ends just after. I'm not IED--I can't rationalize a reason why Kate wouldn't have filtered this sample in order to add to the overall feeling of the song. My guess is that she didn't notice--it's rather high, and at her age, I'm sure she's started losing some of her capability to hear high frequencies. (we had an interesting example of this in a physics of sound class I took--the prof had a tone generator with a pot for the freq. adjustment. He had everybody raise their hand, then he began to increase the frequency, asking people to lower their hands when they could no longer hear the tone. As I recall, in a room of 300 ~20 yr olds, there was no one who could hear a tone over something like 17kHz.)
Thoughts?
Jeff
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 11:49:42-1000
From: Julian Cowley <julian@uhccux.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu>
Subject: Background lyrics in "Reaching Out"
Does anybody have any idea what the background voices are singing in "Reaching Out" in the part right before the chorus? To me it sounds like "Jahweh", which would fit in with the theme of the album, I suppose. Is the song about reaching out for religious enlightenment?
ps. Combine this with the last line of the song, "Reaching out for Mama", and we have an allusion to Jahweh as a feminine entity. No wonder she says the album is essentially from a feminine perspective :-).
julian
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 89 02:59 EST
From: PMANCHESTER@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Subject: Reaching Out
On the consternation over "Reaching Out": First time I heard this, I could see we had to make a choice, whether to go with this song. It helped me when I saw that the last name on the first line of the "thank you" credits was "Melanie." This is probably some monstrous fabrication of my ignorance (Melanie in the KB circle probably being well known to the informed), but I was put in mind of Melanie--the Melanie of "Lay Down, Lay Down (Candles in the Rain)," from late 60s/early 70s, and later of "Brand New Key." Both hers and Kate's songs are what somebody called 'anthems', girlhearted to a nearly unbearable degree, but both songs move me to affirmation. Rolling Stone gave "Lay Down" the worst, most negative and hostile review I had seen in months and months. I couldn't listen to it myself till much later, after Melanie had buffered it with the strong album "Stoneground Words."
"Reaching Out" is needed setup for "Heads". How sweet it is after "Reaching Out" to get that kickoff into "Heads"... but then, ambiguity. We need to bring in "Experiment IV" here and Kate's strong awareness of the ambiguous power of pop music. Of her own music.
Date: Fri, 4 May 90 21:34:50 -0400
From: katefans@world.std.com
(Chris'n'Vickie of Kansas City)
Subject: Reaching Out
Vickie here.
Reaching Out (IMHO) is one of the most beautiful and moving songs I have ever heard. It touches me emotionally, very deeply. It makes me cry. It's a "mama" song that is designed to fit with The Fog (a "papa") song, the way a puzzle piece fits perfectly. IMHO, TF without RO is meaningless, and RO without TF is meaningless. They're a loving homage to her parents and what would Kate be like without Robert and Hannah? IMHO, it also works (as I'm sure it was designed to) as a metaphor for being willing to take chances, even though we might fail at what we are striving to accomplish. It's seeing the world from a fearless child's point of view. A child who loves it's mother will keep reaching out for her love, even though the mother may be abusive (I used to think the entire song was about child abuse), just as those with an unbreakable spirit will not give up in the face of adversity.
The hesitant child-like tinkling piano notes at the beginning sent chills throughout my body the first time I heard it and I just knew it was going to be a favorite song. As it progressed and her voice got stronger and more powerful, I can't describe the utter astonishment I experienced at the way my body and mind reacted to the emotional impact of the song. I was in awe. I was crying at the end of the song and rarely do I listen to it now without at least blinking back a few.
My mother died in late 1982, shortly before The Dreaming was released. I hadn't felt as emotionally devastated since the first time I heard All The Love. That was a painful song to listen to then and my heart still does a small leap when I listen to it now. Reaching Out was (is) a hopeful song that (for me) soothes the pain that I still feel at my mom's passing.
Vickie (one of Vickie'n'Chris)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 89 10:22:05 EDT
From: Jon Drukman <jsd@GAFFA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Hitler?
Heads We're Dancing is a mystery still. Since Julian has supported my half-assed theory that the line is "it's a picture of Hitler" (a theory I have only confided to Ed Suranyi), then I guess we must be right. There seems to be a line where Kate says "It was 1939 before the music started" as well. 1939, is of course, the year in which Adolf invaded Czechoslovakia. The rest of the song makes no sense to me yet. I can't understand what happens if the coin toss comes up tails. Does he annex Poland right away or something?
From: gatech.edu!mit-eddie!gaffa.mit.edu!jsd@cs.utexas.edu (Jon Drukman)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 89 14:07:15 GMT
Subject: Re: The New Musical
Express interview
hah! All you pedestrian twerps can get down on your knees and kiss the ground that I walk on. I sussed out "Heads We're Dancing" totally and Kate's very own words back me up 100%. So, grovel at my feet, you paltry fools!
PS to IED: Lay off on the British music press. It's the way they are and I love it. Peace and love -- hippy shit indeed!
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 08:09:56 pdt
From:
well!sommers@cogsci.berkeley.edu (William Sommers)
Subject: Re: Heads
We're Dancing
Without a second's hesitation, I decided to approach this one with a literal interpretation: at some point KaTe ran across an anecdote or whatever that involved a young woman meeting Herr H., a flip of a coin and a harsh realization the following morning. I can confidently say that there is no basis for said theory. I find no reference to any such tale in a rather thorough search of most existing tomes on the subject. Of course I have never seen the forged(?) diaries and I doubt She has either, although I suppose that possibility does exist.
(The only possible lead that remains is a reference to a certain Sigrid von Lappus, 20, whom Herr H. is supposed to have secretly seen for some months in 1939. Despite his relationship with Eva Braun, Herr H. is well known to have consorted with quite a few young women over the years. Primarily models and actresses, there was never any doubt as to his identity at the time. As I say, the only unchecked reference to a liason in 1939 appears in The Ciano Diaries, 1939-1943 by (Count) Galeazzo Ciano (ed. by Hugh Wilson), NYC: Garden Ciy Publishing Company, 1947. Ciano was Mussolini's son-in-law and Italy's Foreign Minister at the time and is known to have spent a good deal of time with the German leader. I'm still looking for this... please let me know if anyone runs across a copy!)
So much for instinct. I can, however, state one thing with confidence:
There were tens of thousands of GERMANS who had no idea what Herr H. looked like throughout most of WWII. For 1939, multiply that number by at least 10. This is not conjecture, this is fact.
Fortunately, others have already mentioned most of the reasons for this, and I wont rehash them here. Additionally, one needs a familiarity with various European cultures and the important roles geography has played in the development of Europe as a whole. (No condescension intended at all, folks!) As difficult as it may be to believe, there were areas of Germany completely unaffected (other than material shortages) in any manner for the entire duration of the war.
Knowing some of your Love-Hound personalities <grin>, I implore you now not to waste your time or mine by demanding proof or credentials. I have studied this, you haven't. <nyah-nyah...>
- Bill -
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 12:22 PST
From:
IED0DXM%OAC.UCLA.EDU@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: SECRET MESSAGE in Heads We're
Dancing
IED is not going to swear to anything yet, but he thinks there may be a SECRET MESSAGE in Heads We're Dancing. Listen to the first half of the song especially, with headphones preferably, mainly during the solo-vocal sections when Kate is singing verses and particularly the "PCR"s (Kate's term for the "pre-choral refrains"). Then tell IED that you don't hear a very subtle whispered vocal underneath. IED hasn't yet had a chance to really study it, and he realizes that it could turn out to be nothing but a whispered echo of the main vocal line--but perhaps it's something else. Any ideas, anyone?
[I think, this is simply "doob doob doob doob doooo..." or so. --WIE]
Date: Fri, 18 May 90 15:25:48 -0400
From: modcomp!tomc@uunet.uu.net
Subject: Heads We're Dancing
Anyone have a posting explaining what this song (from TSW) is all about? Especially the contraction in the title is a bit confusing.
From: jburka@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka)
Date: 18 May 90
20:32:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Heads We're Dancing
Try expanding the title to something like "If the penny lands with the head up, we are going to dance."
Yeah, I know that's silly, but that's what the title's saying.
KaTe has said in numerous interviews that the song was inspired by a friend who was at a dinner party with Oppenheimer (daddy of the Bomb). The friend and Oppenheimer had a nice conversation, and later, the friend asked the host who 'that charming man' was...and was shocked and horrified to find out.
Kate wanted to play with that idea, choosing the one person closest to the Devil himself that she could think of--Hitler.
In the song, the protaganist is at a party, and this charming man comes up to her and, holding out a penny, says, "Heads we're dancing."
It's not 'til the next morning that the protaganist sees the man's picture in the morning paper, and she's, well, a wee bit horrified.
Make sense?
"They say that the Devil is a charming man/and just like you I bet he can dance."
Jeff
From: E Welsh <ecwu59@castle.ed.ac.uk>
Date: 20 May 90 22:31:31
GMT
Subject: Re: Heads We're Dancing
Jeff writes:
> Try expanding the title to something like "If the penny lands with the head up, we are going to dance."
> Yeah, I know that's silly, but that's what the title's saying.
Not silly, just British ! It's just one of those colloquial things... Like 'Heads I win, tails you lose.'
Ev.
Date: Sat, 19 May 90 13:28:39 EDT
From: nrc@cbema.att.com (Neal R
Caldwell, Ii)
Subject: Heads We're Dancing
Heads We're Dancing is also a play on the words "heads were dancing," a reference to the way a coin dances around before settling on heads or tails. Note the following verse:
They say that the Devil is a charming man.
And just like you I bet he
can dance
And he's coming up behind in his long
Tailed black coat
dance
All tails in the air
But the penny landed with its head
dancing
There's some very witty word play going on in those last four lines. Of course Kate isn't just playing word games, she's also building imagary. Brilliant.
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 90 11:29 PDT
From:
IED0DXM%OAC.UCLA.EDU@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: backing vocals
Richard Caldwell writes:
> Heads We're Dancing is driving me mad. There seem to be some backing vocals that are almost completely obscured by the instrumentation and lead vocals. These are so deeply layered into the music that they are barely discernable. Another "secret message" perhaps? Maybe, but sometimes I think they're just saying "do-do- do-do-do".
IED posted about this a few months ago. In IED's opinion this is indeed some kind of secret message. IED hears a couple of phrases being whispered, v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y, during the first and second "pre-choral refrains", underneath the lead vocal(s). The words are definitely there. Whether they are actually different from the main lyrics, or just a repetition of the main lyrics, or (as you suggest, Richard) just some nonsense syllables, is the big question. But one thing is sure, and that is that Kate went to some pains to hide a whispered vocal of some kind inside the mix of this track, and IED is surprised that this phenomenon has not received more attention from the album's listeners than it has.
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1991 19:00:00 -0800
From:
gatech!chinet.chi.il.us!katefans@EDDIE.MIT.EDU (Chris Williams)
Subject:
Head's We're Dancing - inspiration?
Chris here,
Some time ago my best friend Kim Pierceall suggested to me that we take a look at the film "Hanussen" as a possible lyric source for "Heads We're Dancing." I found this film at the Chicago public library's video rental department, and, yes, it does seem to have many plot elements similar to HWD. I urge anyone interested to check out this film; we'd like to hear what you think.
HANUSSEN
starring Klaus Maria Brandauer
in German with sub-titles
In the trenches at the tail end of World War One a young soldier named Schneider (Brandaur) suffers a serious head injury. As he recovers he is tormented by visions. The Kaiser will be visiting the hospital and some of the soldiers are told that they will not be allowed to stand in review, due to their injuries. This drives another soldier over the edge. He grabs a hand grenade and threatens to blow everyone up. Schneider talks very softly to the soldier, and succeeds in making the soldier hand over the grenade. Afterwards, the doctor describes this skill as "will transference" (I suspect the translation is kind of clunky) and proceeds to test Schneider and finds that he now has a variety of paranormal skills. They work on developing these skills. Scneider meets an old friend, who convences him to become a professional stage "mentalist" and becomes his manager.
He adopts the grander name Jan Erich Hanussen. After fairly shakey beginings the act comes together. A girl from Hanussen's hometown becomes his assistant, falling under his spell. Playing the spas around Austria and Vennia his fame grows. Newspapers report tales of his claims. Finally, they are ready for Berlin, Hanussen headlining now. Various groups wish to know various things, mainly who will be the new Chancellor. Badgered by reporters, Hanussen finally says "Hitler." This leads to being courted by some of the aristocratic members of the National Socalists. Hanussen is apolitical but opportunistic, and gravitates toward this new center of power. A photographer named Lena offers to shot a portfolio. Her work consists of Nazi propaganda of the "new man", naked perfect Ayrans in heroic poses. Her shots of Hanussen are designed to emphasize his powers of mind, blazing eyes, hands thrust foward, looking upward, both hands, one arm, etc. A young Nazi heckels Hanussen, who challenges him to come on-stage. Hanussen hypnotizes the man, man making him crow like a rooster. Humiliated, the Nazi leaves.
He meets up again with his doctor, much older. The doctor is Jewish, and is afraid for his life. He urges Hanussen to emigrate to America with him. Finally Hanussen begins to see what will result from the Nazi rise to power, and the effect that this power is having on himself. He sees a paper, and the front page photo of Hitler looks familer. He goes upstairs and gets his portfolio. In one of the photographs he is in the exact same pose that Hitler is in the paper.
---
There is more but this is enough to give you the feel of the film and see some of the elements that I think Kate lifted for HWD. Obviously this is not exactly the same plot, as The Infant Kiss is from "The Innocents", but I feel has closer parallels than Get Out Of My House has to it's aknowledged inspiration, "The Shining." Well, I urge everyone to see this film and make up your own minds.
Chris Williams
From: as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (andrew david simchik)
Date: Thu,
3 Dec 92 01:54:52 GMT
Subject: Heads
Why I do like "Heads We're Dancing".
The intro hooked me right away. It locked me into this driving, devilish groove that fit the song perfectly. Then the guitar came in, and I knew I would love it. From there, it was just pure pleasure; remember this was my first Kate album, and this was one of the most unique songs I had ever heard.
I still like this song a lot. The lyrics do express an interesting theme, that the outwardly innocuous may blossom (bad metaphor, sorry) into something monstrous, that what may appear to be a gentleman on the dance floor could in fact be a demon in formal dress. I've heard many people say they dislike HWD; I have yet to hear any good reasons from them to dislike it, or any reasons at all for that matter.
Drewcifer
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 89 10:22:05 EDT
From: Jon Drukman <jsd@GAFFA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: DU
Deeper Understanding is pretty self-evident. The only question that lingers is: who is talking at the end of the song? |>oug and I have been fighting about this one. I say that the narrator has been forcibly ripped away from the only thing in the world that ever gave her love and understood where she was coming from, so she sits alone, crying softly to herself: "I hate to leave you." |>oug thinks that the computer is saying this.
Well, here's three big tunes to discuss. I've started "rolling the ball," so why don't you people jump in? Come on, you won't look completely foolish until the lyrics sheets come out anyway...
"Do you wanna dance?"
From: adams%hilbert.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Jeffrey P. Adams)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 89 22:19:23 GMT
Subject: Deeper Understanding
Deeper Understanding seems to be about Kate (or whomever) finding (1) friendship and (2) knowledge through a computer. There is clear reference to some sort of dial-up network. As Ed Suryani pointed out to me, the choir represents the responses from the computer, as if it were a bunch of other people. Others have speculated that it's the computer itself, but I think it makes more sense to think of it as other users on a net. Sounds to me it could only be about ... Love-Hounds !!! Wow! Kate has written an obvious tribute to *us* !!!!!!!!! :^)
Rocket's Tail is the FIRST Kate song (from *any* album) to creep under my skin and "hook" me. That's not to disparage any of her previous work. Up 'til now, I've been mostly impressed by her work in aggregate - the songs all work together, and no single one jumps out on its own from the others. But RT is *awesome*! The combination of Kate's voice, the Trio B., Dave G.'s guitar, and the elusive ethnic sound (Is it Irish with Bulgarian influences or Bulgarian with Irish influences?) have an effect I can only describe as "searing".
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 89 09:59:50 EDT
From: Jon Drukman <jsd@GAFFA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: DU
> [re Deeper Understanding:]
WHY are there bird sound effects at the end of this song? Did the protagonist suddenly get out into the real world? I really wish there wasn't a happy ending.
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 89 15:32 PST
From:
IED0DXM%OAC.UCLA.EDU@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: the men's chorus
Had you noticed the men's chorus in Deeper Understanding ? Or the lawnmower (motorcycle)? Have you got the extra lyrics at the end of that song yet? IED won't give them away if you haven't, but they are important lyrics in the song, and they have a surprise ending.
Similarly, there are extra words at the end of Never Be Mine (not counting the Trio Bulgarka's words, which presumably are in Bulgarian), and Kate (as a high, screaming chorus) is also definitely singing specific words in the long Floydish second half of Rocket's Tail, too. IED hasn't figured them out yet, but they're there--and the important thing is that none of these extra lyrics is included in the lyric sheet.
And it doesn't end there. Anyone found anything else under the surface of The Sensual World that they'd care to share?
IED hates to leave you, but duty calls in The Insensitive World.
-- Andrew Marvick
From: Doug Alan <nessus@athena.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 89
13:19:52 EST
Subject: re: the men's chorus
> [IED:] Had you noticed the men's chorus in Deeper Understanding ? Or the lawnmower (motorcycle)?
They sound to me like "I hate to leave you... I hate to leave you... I hate to leave you...." And then at the very end, "It isn't easy...." This |>oug takes to mean that the computer program that has been fairy godmother to Kate must leave now and let Kate stand on her own two feet.
|>oug
From: donley@blake.acs.washington.edu (E. Donley Olson)
Date: 1 Nov 89
01:57:45 GMT
Subject: DU
Some comments on the observations spurred by IED:
Deeper Understanding, Male Chorus --- sounds like it's just a Fairlight line. Didn't she say she did all the choruses with Fairlight lines first? Words at end -- I get "I hate to leave you" a few times, and then "I hate to LOSE you" at the end.. One of the lines is too low to hear, and all I get is "I h------------ou"... Anyone else get other variations?
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 89 10:14 PST
From:
IED0DXM%OAC.UCLA.EDU@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: end of Deeper Understanding
About the "seKreT" message at the end of Deeper Understanding (and, not surprisingly, to disagree with !>oug on this point): Kate sings "I hate to leave you" several times, but the last time the word "leave" turns into "lose" at the very end. !>oug's idea seems wrong to IED because the "lose you" line begins with exactly the same "h" sound (in the "hate") as the previous lines. The only difference comes in the "leave" sound.
P.S.: Two more "seKreTs" in Deeper Understanding : Have you noticed the two whispered "Hello!"s ? Keep an ear out for them. And have you heard the "early birds"--i.e., not the birds at the end of the song, but their pre-figuration earlier in the track--?
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 89 15:51:21 EST
From: Woj <woiccare@clutx.clarkson.edu>
Subject: Deeper Understanding
As best as I can recall, the addition of the protaganist to her computer is not resolved within the song. Her family removes her from the console, but her desire to sit down and "press execute" does not seem to be eradi-cated. Hence I think a more likely interpretation is that the protaganist *still* wants to be with her computer, but is forced to, thus the protag- anist singing forlornly "I hate to leave you..."
Comments?
woj
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 89 16:22:57 -0800
From: stewarte@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (The
Man Who Invented Himself)
Subject: Deeper Understanding
Here's an off-the-wall thought that I had while listening to the ending of "Deeper Understanding": suppose that "I hate to leave you" is spoken by KT as she resumes a "normal" life, that doesn't include her computer friend. Perhaps it's a romance that has taken her attention away. As I was contemplating this, "Between a Man and a Woman" started, and suddenly I began to imagine that the song is sung to the computer, now jealously trying to interfere with the romance that has taken KT from it.
Before y'all tear me apart on this, let me say that I don't think there's anything in "Between..." that supports this interpretation; I just found it an interesting idea.
-- Stewart
From: "Woj,,," <woiccare%image.soe!clutx.clarkson.edu@omnigate.clarkson.edu>
Date: 2 Nov 89 23:32:23 GMT
Subject: Between a Computer and a Woman
Let's see: to me, if Kate was unable to remove herself from her computer and her family was forced to do so, it could be a warning about the seductiveness of technology.
I personally see the song as a conflict between technology and humanity. "When the people here grow colder..." => as technology becomes a larger and larger part of human life, we become more and more like it (ie. colder). So in effect, turning to her computer is *just as good* as turning to another human since we are are becoming just like them in many aspects.
This, I think, is the crux of the song: that technology, for all its greatness and usefulness, is dangerous. My mother is always complaining about "how all you engineers don't know how to think, love and communicate!" While this is an exagerration, it parallels what Kate seems to be saying in "Deeper Understanding".
> It wouldn't really say anything. In the other two interpretations, it has the nice meaning that everyone needs an emotionaly crutch every now and then, but eventually you have to grow up again and stand on your own two feet.
The trouble with this, Doug, is that most people who develop a need for an emotional crutch and find one usually *don't* know when they no longer need it and do not leave of their own accord. That is why I feel that the "I hate to leave you..." chorus is actually Kate singing to her computer as her family takes her away, or whenever she leaves her terminal. The computer saying goodbye is not very viable in my mind...especially if one takes the tech vs. humanity route, for the program would not make Kate leave, even if it did know that Kate no longer needed it.
woj
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 89 20:16:31 PST
From: Jimmy Liberato <harvard!unix.sri.com!amdahl!drivax!
liberato@EDDIE.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deeper Understanding
One other point: the protagonist is repeatedly referered to as "she" by everyone. There is absolutely no evidence for this assumption and is actually quite unlikely. The pathological phenomenon described in the song is almost exclusively in the male domain. In addition to my own observations I offer the interesting article in Omni of about a year ago which covered this topic. (Not at hand right now.)
Finally, I propose the final lines are a lament FROM the computer not for it. After all, it does have a "voice console" we are told. The voice used by Kate is also different from the rest of the song. Even my Amiga greets me at bootup with a perfectly digitized voice of HAL from 2001 proclaiming: "I'm completely operational and all my circuits are functioning perfectly."
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 89 11:38:38 EST
From: Woj <woiccare@clutx.clarkson.edu>
Subject: Between a Computer and Melody Maker
At one point in the discussion that Kate had with the Melody Maker, She says, "the idea was that the verses were the person and the choruses were the computer talking to the person." I think this pretty much eliminates any possibility that the computer "hates to leave" Kate.
I posted earlier a little spiel on this song, but it got eaten (it was real weird, but somehow it got sent to our sysadmin who *might* have forwarded it to |>oug - maybe..).
Anyways, I see the song "Deeper Understanding" as a conflict between humanity and technology. "When the people her grow colder/ I turn to my computer." This is Real Scary because it implies (to me anyways) a few things:
- The advent of technology is having adverse effects on humanity. This is not explicitly stated in the song, but I get the feeling that comp- uters, etc. could very well be the reason for humanity to grow colder. My mother summed this up nicely when she said, "All you students going to technological schools are taught incredible things, but you never learn to communicate, to feel or to love!" Harsh and a bit stereotypical, but in some cases very true.
- Technology is getting to the point where it could be feasible for it to replace humanity, as it did in this song (go read alt.cyberpunk for an update). I find this incredibly frightening - how could anything a machine replace the warmth, love and being of another human? However, it did happen here...this was sorta addressed in last night Star Trek ("Booby Trap"), where Giordi more or less falls in love with a holodeck construct that he was using to help solve an engineering problem.
Lastly, how to interpret the "I hate to leave you" lines. As I might have said before, I see it as Kate, who is *still* addicted to the computer, saying to the computer that she hates to leave it. As I stated, it can not be the computer since it is Kate singing those lines, but I don't believe that she has realized her addiction and is removing herself, even though she hates to do so. An addiction or emotional crutch, in most cases, is so blinding that one does not see what is happening. I highly doubt that someone who has developed an addiction to her personal conputer to the point where she "is lonely [and] lost without her little black box" would realize such.
Note: most of this coalesed before I read the Melody Maker interview. After reading it, we see that Kate states that computers could provide another source of information about ourselves, "because they could come in from outside all this." She goes on to talk about the mechanical nature of Nature and how a computer might be able to help us to go "through all that science..to something very spiritual but very earthy."
I'm not really sure where she is going with this, and in fact, Kate states that she's not really sure what she's saying, but I imagine it *might* lead somewhere (maybe we should refer *Kate* to alt.cyberpunk!). Anybody care to take this farther?
woj
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 89 02:59 EST
From: PMANCHESTER@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Subject: DU
Look, is everybody sure that the lines after DU start out "I hate to leave you"? The last line "I hate to lose you" is plain enough, but before that I have been hearing "I hate to leave NOW" all these weeks, and I STILL do.
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 15:49:18 CST
From: Jorn Barger <barger@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu>
Subject: d.u posting woes
when i first read the lyrics of d.u. as posted here a month ago, i went running to my local hounds-pals waving them and saying "see? see? she understands me!!!" because i'm fanatic in my belief that computers can teach us to understand ourselves... but they laughed and said, "no, she's making fun of tech-nerds" and i could only lamely claim "well, i bet at least it's ambiguous"...
so my weekend was made-in-spades when i saw the mm-interview quotes-- kt is god and kt is the prophet too!
as i read it, and maybe i'm projecting but you'll have to prove it to me, the spiritual lesson of computers can arise from their ability to simulate human behavior-- like in turkle's "second self", we are learning to see ourselves in new ways because the computer provides a perfectly objective mirror-- we use computer terms like "pop my stack" or "hard-wired" to describe our own behavior (i wish i had my list with me of more-impressive examples of this). too, think of wizardry and its little simulated characters, or ultima, or balance of power, or chris crawford's new "trust and betrayal"... as our ability to create game-characters that act human improves, we will be forced to consider who we are and why we feel and act as we do...
kate says "I think... a lot of the things that we do are very mechanical..." this teaching goes back to gurdjieff (anyone know how serious her involvement was there? i just saw the gurdjieff bio-pic "mtgs w/remarkable men" and thought the dancing at the end was strangely familiar)... if we want to escape from our mechanical habit patterns we have to learn to observe them, and computers offer new metaphors and are totally free of selfish dis-tortions... (kate: "I do feel that, in some ways, computers could take us into a level of looking at ourselves that we've never seen before, because they could come in from outside all this...")
i am lucky enough to be working at an artificial intelligence research center-- the Institute for the Learning Sciences at Northwestern Univ.--where the very best thinkers on these subjects are concentrated. The ILS is headed by Roger Schank whose breakthrough book is called "Scripts, Plans, Goals and Understanding"-- he tries to establish a basic vocabulary of human acts and use it to teach a computer to be able to read ordinary english and answer questions about what it's read.
we also have Andrew Ortony who has just published the first "computationally tractable" theory of emotions: "The Cognitive Structure of Emotions".
That KT is intuitively aware of this totally blows my mind and confirms what we all believe (k.b.i.g.)-- it's a point of view that is so new that almost nothing has been written on it (i.e. spiritual implications of a.i.)
so do i go too far? ...tell me!
jorn barger
we'd like to bring you love, and deeper understanding... someday
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 90 11:29 PDT
From:
IED0DXM%OAC.UCLA.EDU@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: DU
About the touch-tone sounds in Deeper Understanding, yes these are the sounds of the modem, but IED believes Richard's implied question was: What's the number ? IED supposes that touch-tones in England may be based on different tones than in the U.S., so he has never tried to figure out the number here at home, but perhaps some industrious and dediKated UK KorrespondenT could let us know his/her findings? Has it never occurred to anyone that Kate might just conceivably have used a number of her own, at the end of which there might be some sort of message to those fans perseverent enough to have figured it out? IED for one wouldn't put something like that past her...
-- Andrew Marvick
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 90 09:11:13
From: Jorn Barger <barger@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu>
Subject: Deeper beeps
After digitizing the phonebeeps in DU and messing around with them in soundedit, my guess is they're... clueless?
They certainly don't sound like american touchtone beeps (which i would guess probably are a global standard).
ps- i borrowed a co-worker's cd-walkman last friday and left TD in it (on purpose) when i returned it. bingo-- another convert! (he's a musician, they're sitting ducks!)
From: adamsd@crash.cts.com (Adams Douglas)
Date: 14 Jun 90 16:54:04
GMT
Subject: Re: Deeper beeps
They are not Touch-Tone tones. Touch-Tones, as you may know, consist of a distinct pair of pitches (a two-note chord). The sound in the song is a sequence of alternating pitches followed by a longer high pitch. The tones themselves appear to be sine waves but are not the FM tones used in modem transmission. In fact, they seem to be a nice, musical Minor Third apart (can anyone with a better ear than I confirm this).
Since you can make such a sound in any modern studio in about two minutes of synthesizer programming, I suspect that Kate simply created it on the spot.
From: mauser@intercon.com (Richard Chandler)
Date: 30 Dec 1992
21:57:40 -0600
Subject: DU alt. title
Has anyone ever proposed an alternate title to "Deeper Understanding"?
My Login Love
Sorry. I just thought of this today and had to inflict you all with it. :-)
From: donley@blake.acs.washington.edu (E. Donley Olson)
Date: 1 Nov 89
01:57:45 GMT
Subject: Between A Man and a Woman
Between A Man and a Woman -- Yeah! There is another vocal line in there! On headphones you can hear it panning back and forth from left to right, during the louder parts of the song. Whether or not they are actually words though... Well, given her previous tricks, I'd guess there might be a message in there.
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 00:58:08 PDT
From:
keving%gaffa.wpd.sgi.com@sgi.sgi.com (Kevin Gurney)
Subject: lyrics
question about "Never Be Mine"
So like this complete Kate neophyte friend of mine was listening to the new cd over my shoulder and noticed this little bit of strangeness in "Never Be Mine":
"The smell of burning fields
Will now mean you and here."
At first I thought she must have meant to write "you ARE here", but no, she actually sings "you and here". What does this mean? We guess that she means
"Will now mean 'you' and 'here'"
as in "the burning fields remind me of both you and this place."
Other opinions?
"See how the child reaches out instinctively
to feel how fire
will feel"
- Kate Bush "Reaching Out"
From: "Daniel S. Efran" <de0t+@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <8910270758.AA18819@gaffa.wpd.sgi.com>
Subject: Re:
lyrics question about "Never Be Mine"
> "Will now mean 'you' and 'here'"
> as in "the burning fields remind me of both you and this place."
As far as I can tell, that's what she means.
From: cbnews!nrc@att.att.com
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 89 15:23 EST
Subject: Never Be Mine...Where?
I think "Never Be Mine" is one of the outstanding songs on "The Sensual World" (I think there are about 11 -- and you may think what you like :-)).
This song takes a wonderful idea and expresses it beautifully. For me this song conjurs up a lot of imagery...specifically the "setting fire to the cornfields" verse. Any ideas on what this might be referring to? To me it conjures up images of the American Civil War but perhaps there is a more obvious reference that I'm not aware of. Maybe something closer to home (for Kate anyway).
From: nv89-pyl@nada.kth.se (Patrik Yle'n)
Date: 12 Dec 89 14:08:17 GMT
Subject: Re: Never Be Mine...Where?
I believe this song is a about a person that loses his/hers loved one in a war (Perhaps the American Civil War).
"This is where I want to be/this is what I need/this is where I want to be/
.../but I know that this will never be mine.
Ooh the thrill and the hurting/Will never be mine/The thrill and the hurting."
Imho this is obviously someone who dreams about being able to come back to her lost land and love. "This is where I want to be" refers to him/her wanting to get back lands perhaps lost in a war."This is what i need" refers to the person wanting his/her love back, that was lost in the war...
-Patrik.
From: Doug Alan <nessus@athena.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 89
16:41:20 EST
Subject: Re: Never Be Mine...Where?
> I believe this song is a about a person that loses his/hers loved one in a war(Perhaps the American Civil War).
No, the burning fields in the song refer to the practice of many farmers of burning the remains of their fields in the autumn in order to fertilze the soil and prepare it for the next year's crop.
The lover is the song has not died, but it is the case that their relationship can not be anymore. This is why the song is so sad.
|>oug
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 89 10:22:05 EDT
From: Jon Drukman <jsd@GAFFA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: RT
I really think Rocket's Tail is about suicide. The opening a-capella bits feature lines where Kate talks about dressing up like a rocket, standing on the edge of a bridge, and plunging into the night. Sadly, once all the raucous guitar stuff starts, I can't understand a word she says, except for the unbelievably soulful cries of "Take a little fire!" which is a terribly ambiguous phrase...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 89 09:59:50 EDT
From: Jon Drukman <jsd@GAFFA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: RT
This is what makes love-hounds so interesting. The first time I heard it I had to stop the tape and take deep breaths. It was a (to quote S'Express) SCREAMING ORGASM of sound! Completely brilliant.
From: cbnews!wbt@att.att.com
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 89 11:10 EDT
Subject: RT
Thanks to Steve Wallis for posting the Radio One interview...or so far at least the first part of it.
In that interview Kate talks about Rocket's Tail, a truely awesome piece of work...
It sounds like Kate isn't entirely comfortable talking about this song. I can only imagine that this means something to her personally.
Could it be about Kate's feelings about her own fame? Once every three years or so she launches herself into the public view once again. Fame can be so wonderful but at the same time it can be a very lonely thing.
At the beginning of the song its almost as though she's telling someone else (perhaps one of her collaboraters, Gilmore or Gabriel?) that they must be crazy to go on this rocket ride, it may be great for a short time but you can also end up burnt out and alone.
And then Kate knocks us out with the irony, she's about to take that rocket ride again herself. But she tells us in the interview that it's alright now, she can live life for the moment and enjoy it.
I've just started working on this idea but I think it may be worth consideration.
So am I nuts?
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 08:09:56 pdt
From:
well!sommers@cogsci.berkeley.edu (William Sommers)
Subject: Re: Rocket's
Tail
Keeping in mind that most of this was developed prior to my reading the NME transcription IED posted here, I submit my musings on RT :
KaTe wants to write a piece around The Trio Bulgarka, rather than vice versa. There is no vision, no sudden inspiration on Her part; She is actively searching for a theme. <just bear with the imagery> Late one November evening, sitting with Her knees tucked to Her chest, Her chin resting on Her crossed forearms, Her mind adrift, She espies Rocket, who is staring upwards out of a window. With an almost audible click, things begin to fall in place. Rocket, a rocket, tail, fire, power, soar--The Trio Bulgarka are certainly capable of expressing searing emotional imagery.
The lyrics are as straightforward as anything She has ever written. The lyrics are also pretty much irrelevant, and serve only to form images <KT appears to confirm this in NME>. What remains unclear is the transition that is occurring with the line "I put on my pointed hat". There is a departure from reality here, but how far a depart-ure? Pure fantasy? A dream?
Or has the charaKTer been drawn right into Her own vision and is physically performing these acts as well, mechanically following her thoughts as it were? Is there a momentary return to reality as She, still dressed up in a rocket outfit, falls into the river below the bridge? <sigh> That's the problem with imagery, these questions will never be answered satisfactorily since She appears to choose not to elaborate.
In any case, I too was completely blown away by RT. I now thank the Powers that (She) be for the decisions I made which resulted in abstaining from any prior knowledge of TSW 's contents. In my opinion it was the auditory orgasm up to which all previous existing music has been building. I will go so far as to publicly opine that RT are two of the "best" compositions that KT has ever penned, and, in combination, should mandate FDA precautionary labeling at minimum.
Have you ever been head-over-heels in love? Can't eat for the butterflies, can't sleep for the racing heart and can't get a damn thing done for the life of you head-over-heels in love? Take a week of that, distill all the emotion down into 1 minute 29 seconds, and you have the first half of RT. The second half is sheer genius--only our KT could paint a powerFloyd-esque frame-work, solely a framework, around TTB and Herself, and make it much more than just "work".
Umm... I seem to be getting carried away. I like the tune. ;)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 91 17:47:17 EST
From: Andrew B Marvick <abm4@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject: RT
Hi, Love-Hounds.
Par Fornland asks what Rocket's Tail is all about: the song is a little story about a young person who, in a final desperate moment of life (the details of which have not been explained), has actually strapped onto his/her back a rocket and shot him/herself into the air from Waterloo Bridge into the river. In the first part of the song this person recalls a conversation he/she had had with a friend one Guy Fawkes night, in which the friend had remarked upon the beauty of the fireworks (rockets). The narrator wryly recalls how he/she had originally thought such an idea crazy--that the momentary brilliance of the rockets was a sad waste. The irony is that in the second half of the song, the narrator has not only come to share his/her friend's opinion (that life is short, and that a moment of brilliant glory is worth seeking even if it should be one's last act in life)--he/she has even taken the idea to its ultimate expression, i.e., jumping off a bridge in a rocket-suit.
A great moment in the history of art.
From: Scott Telford <s.telford@ed.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993
15:21:29 GMT
Subject: And still as rocket I land....
Something that's been bugging me for a while....
The lyrics for Rocket's Tail in the CD booklet give this line as
And still as a rocket, I land in the water,
but She doesn't seem to be singing this on the album...it sounds much more like
And still as a rocket, I land on the moon.
I know She tends to ad lib a bit when recording, but this is a pretty major change in the general metaphor (just trying to sound pretentious here 8-) is it not?. Has anybody mentioned this before on L-H? Can't say I remember anything.
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 93 10:54:34 -0500
From: jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu
(Jeffrey C. Burka)
Subject: Re: And still as rocket I land....
I've never been entirely sure if it's "river" or "water" that she's saying, but I'm *quite* certain it's not "moon."
And you're right, "moon" wouldn't make any sense anyway. We're talking about fireworks, after all.
Jeff
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written by Love-Hounds
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Willker
Sept 1995 June 1996